Attitudes Toward DIR Divers

[steinbil]

The bulk of this is no different than the buddy system taught by all the other agencies. I understand that the GUE teaching implies that they are better than all other agencies, this is just marketing and unfortunately bad divers come from all agencies.

I wasn't talking about GUE. I was talking about diving as a team. You know, since that was what you asked. Have you ever taken a GUE class? The buddy system of an agency like PADI (the only one I have personal experience with) is a far cry from team diving.

And, reliance does happen for GUE divers, I have seen it with my own eyes. A diver who could not get into and under water by him/herself without a team to help them, and they had over 100 logged dives, but only with a team. All of the items you indicate that are associated with not team diving happens with team diving as well. One would like to think is doesn't but it does, maybe not your team, but it does happen.

Were they unable to? Or did they just get assistance? Nothing wrong with helping each other. If they were unable to, then I would say it's not team diving. I am a GUE diver. I have done many non-team dives, because I didn't have a team, I had buddies – which is ok if they are competent and less ok if they are not – but I prefer team diving.

However, I could see the argument that a disabled diver who needed assistance getting into/out of the water, could be a contributing team member, especially underwater, even though it would require planning to mitigate the added risk of a team member needing assistance on the surface – they would require a team around them.

Your last bullet really made me laugh. I would not be having fun if I was forced to use the equipment that works for some but not all. Each individual is different and a Hogarthian BP/W does not fit and not comfortable for everyone, so it would not be enjoyable.

Again, I wasn't talking about DIR or GUE. I was talking about team diving. You can dive as a team with jacket BCs, it's just less reliable, efficient and comfortable, and it makes diving harder. I have never heard of a BP/W not fitting someone, especially if a jacket BC fits - what's so special about your anatomy?

As I said before, Team diving has a place for certain dive profiles. However, it is overkill and sometimes just not fun when used exclusively for recreational diving. Arguing that there is only one right way to dive is ridiculous.

Anybody saying team diving is not fun, I'm quite confident hasn't experienced a good team.

 

[Nick_Radov]

All the team diving in the world with proper trim staying flat proper frog anti silting kicks back kicks heli turns and the rest isn’t going to do you a damn bit of good in this area.

Fundamental dive skills will do you quite a bit of good anywhere. Sonoma County dive sites have their share of challenges and anyone who wants to dive there ought to obtain guidance from an experienced local. But let's not pretend that what works everywhere else along the Pacific coast won't work there.

I tried like hell back in the old days to get a DIR instructor dude guy up here to run a class and every time they refused.
At that time they were all from LA.
Now I know why.

Good instructors are in high demand, and while some of them are willing to travel all over the world the logistical obstacles in a place like Sonoma County can make it difficult to deliver high-quality training. You end up burning up too much time getting fills, driving around, finding an accessible swimming pool, waiting for weather conditions to clear, long surface swims, etc. Not worth the hassle. Students end up failing due to running out of time rather than failing to meet course standards, which ends up being a frustrating experience for everyone involved. The point of a course like Fundamentals is to build basic foundational diving skills. It's not about proving you're tough enough to dive in harsh conditions.

If you're serious about getting more DIR training then it's easy enough to schedule a class in the Monterey or Los Angeles areas. Having a proper dive shop, safe shore diving site, accommodations, restaurants, and swimming pool all within a few miles eliminates a lot of the potential friction. Sometimes it's just easier for the student to go to the instructor.

 

[Eric Sedletzky]

I'm having trouble following your point. I understand there are sometimes challenging conditions where you dive. Are you saying that a team is detrimental to diving under those conditions, or that it's in fact impossible to dive as a team in flat trim etc etc there, or that team divers are too scared to enter the water there, or something else?

Team diving ‘could’ be detrimental depending on what your definition of “team” is. Is it a buddy team as in “don’t separate because you’re carrying my reserve gas supply”. Or is it something else?
I always understood team to mean that the whole works as a unit that’s why all the standardized everything, and the reliance on another team mate in the event of an OOG that’s why the long hose to swim single file out of a restriction.
Bright light to signal, etc.
Here there are no restrictions only a lot of waves, rocks, a sh_tload of urchins, swells, surge, and sometimes ripping flow through cracks close shore, low vis, freezing cold, drysuits work but most dive wet. It’s really easy to look away for a second and then look back and your teammate/buddy is gone. Unless you want to look around for a minute and go up 7 or 8 times during a dive, most just finish the dive on their own. Ponies? Most don’t bother, just more crap to lug around and get caught in stuff, and for shallowish dives?

For some reason we don’t have any DIR’s up here, not one. We used to have one but he moved away.
Monterey seems to be the cutoff for the DIR crowd. A lot of Silicon Valley techie’s it seems, and the conditions and support network are better down there for them.
A lot of dives here that start as buddy dives and can end up solo dives. However, nobody that I have ever seen is all rigged out as a proper solo diver, they just end up solo, and they are OK with that. Not a lot of rules around here. This not a destination by any standards so hardly any people dive here except locals. We kinda write our own rules, but you will see a wide range of gear choices and configurations that suits each individual. Some pretty raggedy old crap that looks like it was dug out of the dump then run over by a semi, to brand new Scubapro Hydros and everything in between. You won’t see a lot of pretty divers here doing everything beautifully, the divers here are more about the diving not so much the gear. It’s more about developing mental control skills, not letting your nerves get you and keeping your Sh_t in your body when things are not going so great. That’s what defines a good diver in these parts, not really how pretty they look. Navigation is critical, as is knowing the area and how it can go south and how quickly. I don’t think there is any sort of standardization here nor any sort of “team” mentality besides perhaps a common overall bigger picture goal or shared common cause which has nothing to do with what goes on underwater other than a certain work function like in our case purple urchin collection.
I guess I could call our people a team but we just call ourselves a group.

 

[crofrog]

Begs the question. Why did you want me to relate Black Swan events? There are these possible answers I guess; you have never experience such an unexpected event, you do not believe they occur in diving or you don't believe I have experienced them. Every diver that dives long enough with get caught completely 'off-guard' in a situation that could or did end in dire consequences. Not if but when.

You are adamant that a team would be useless in a "black swan" event and that we're all just solo divers, but then you related a story where the team ended up being pretty helpful, even if it was just by chance, but I digress.

I'm not sure "rouge waves" in the ocean can be categorized as a black swan, given how frequently they've occurred in human history. It might have been the first time you experienced them, but it's certainly not the first time they've happened. They might occur infrequently enough to be labeled as low risk, and the risk treatment strategy might have been "accept," but the risk is known.

I have a hard time envisioning a "black swan" scenario in diving where a team makes it worse, and I can think of many times where a team gives you options and resources you wouldn't have otherwise.

 

[Eric Sedletzky]

Fundamental dive skills will do you quite a bit of good anywhere. Sonoma County dive sites have their share of challenges and anyone who wants to dive there ought to obtain guidance from an experienced local. But let's not pretend that what works everywhere else along the Pacific coast won't work there.

Good instructors are in high demand, and while some of them are willing to travel all over the world the logistical obstacles in a place like Sonoma County can make it difficult to deliver high-quality training. You end up burning up too much time getting fills, driving around, finding an accessible swimming pool, waiting for weather conditions to clear, long surface swims, etc. Not worth the hassle. Students end up failing due to running out of time rather than failing to meet course standards, which ends up being a frustrating experience for everyone involved. The point of a course like Fundamentals is to build basic foundational diving skills. It's not about proving you're tough enough to dive in harsh conditions.

If you're serious about getting more DIR training then it's easy enough to schedule a class in the Monterey or Los Angeles areas. Having a proper dive shop, safe shore diving site, accommodations, restaurants, and swimming pool all within a few miles eliminates a lot of the potential friction. Sometimes it's just easier for the student to go to the instructor.

What makes you think I don’t have good fundamental dive skills?
What, just because I’m not GUE trained means I don’t have good foundational dive skills? Really??

And I’m not getting DIR training, I’m way over it. That was 25 years ago.

We tried to get an instructor here. We had a venue, a pool, and an ocean. This is where we would have been applying the schooling so don’t you think this is where the training should have taken place? What happened to “GLOBAL Underwater Explorers”? Or is it just “wherever it’s nice” explorers?
Phil Sammet didn’t seem to have a problem coming up here for a week.
Why send 4 guys to Monterey or LA for a week when one instructor can come up here. We were willing to put him up first class and pay everything he wanted.
So they went all the way up to Seattle instead.
So what is the sound like? Calmer than here?

 

[Wallowa]

That's crazy. How does that relate to the conversation on team diving?

I was asked to give an example of a Black Swan diving event [#606] but unfortunately this discussion has become very contentious and is now laced with "you said" misquotes and obviously wounded egos, which if unfortunate. The female diver mentioned in my Black Swan event was and is a stout safe diver who had it under control in those circumstances; she was providing for her own safety. The diver that offered her a reg and anchored her between the rocks was a DM who just made life easier for her, but she had it covered. No team effort could have replaced the individual survival skills each diver exhibited; no line on dive plan would either.

Also if anyone thinks they can predict when a submarine canyon will slump [best one on Pacific coast, Delgada Cyn, is north of this cove] and produce a series of totally unpredictable set of wave forms is delusional. Delgada Submarine Canyon - Wikipedia.
Spend enough time on or in the ocean and you realize how capricious sea conditions are. These sets I described where no generic 7th/sneaker waves [another myth] but a true Black Swan event.

Students fail to certify due to lack of safe diving skill sets, not due to distances driven or lack of quality training.....see #623 for a first hand post of why divers trained on Northcoast must possess solid skills and judgment....he describes the conditions perfectly...

Are Northcoast divers good to go for diving anywhere along the West coast? No, orientations are needed for safe dives in unknown dive sites, but pull a diver off a dive boat to Anacapa and drop them on the beach near Point Arena or points North and a lot more that an orientation will be needed to vouch safe their dives.

If you say Sonoma or Humboldt or Del Norte does not offer top notch diver training it shows ignorance of those diving communities. Diving conditions North of Fort Ross are light years different and more arduous than Monterey. Anyone punching through the surf into 49 degree or less water with a surging 3 feet of visibility earns their certifications. Not comparing what skills are required for dives off the Isthmus of Catalina vs Mendocino Headlands but for anyone who has been diving or been trained in the rock and roll, cold and "blue lips black water" of the North coast and Oregon coast has the skill sets that are defined by self-reliance and self-sufficient dive skills and judgment.

Sorry for this long missive......this thread has degenerated to belly bumping and mis-information.....I do however appreciate the salient comments by some; I learn by listening.....you folks duke it out on your own....out here.

Adios,

DSO

 

[Eric Sedletzky]

I was asked to give an example of a Black Swan diving event [#606] but unfortunately this discussion has become very contentious and is now laced with "you said" misquotes and obviously wounded egos, which if unfortunate. The female diver mentioned in my Black Swan event was and is a stout safe diver who had it under control in those circumstances; she was providing for her own safety. The diver that offered her a reg and anchored her between the rocks was a DM who just made life easier for her, but she had it covered. No team effort could have replaced the individual survival skills each diver exhibited; no line on dive plan would either.

Also if anyone thinks they can predict when a submarine canyon will slump [best one on Pacific coast, Delgada Cyn, is north of this cove] and produce a series of totally unpredictable set of wave forms is delusional. Delgada Submarine Canyon - Wikipedia.
Spend enough time on or in the ocean and you realize how capricious sea conditions are. These sets I described where no generic 7th/sneaker waves [another myth] but a true Black Swan event.

Students fail to certify due to lack of safe diving skill sets, not due to distances driven or lack of quality training.....see #623 for a first hand post of why divers trained on Northcoast must possess solid skills and judgment....he describes the conditions perfectly...

Are Northcoast divers good to go for diving anywhere along the West coast? No, orientations are needed for safe dives in unknown dive sites, but pull a diver off a dive boat to Anacapa and drop them on the beach near Point Arena or points North and a lot more that an orientation will be needed to vouch safe their dives.

If you say Sonoma or Humboldt or Del Norte does not offer top notch diver training it shows ignorance of those diving communities. Diving conditions North of Fort Ross are light years different and more arduous than Monterey. Anyone punching through the surf into 49 degree or less water with a surging 3 feet of visibility earns their certifications. Not comparing what skills are required for dives off the Isthmus of Catalina vs Mendocino Headlands but for anyone who has been diving or been trained in the rock and roll, cold and "blue lips black water" of the North coast and Oregon coast has the skill sets that are defined by self-reliance and self-sufficient dive skills and judgment.

Sorry for this long missive......this thread has degenerated to belly bumping and mis-information.....I do however appreciate the salient comments by some; I learn by listening.....you folks duke it out on your own....out here.

Adios,

DSO

I put together an expedition and dived Delgada Canyon 24 years ago with three other divers.
Incredibly eerie place, very deep, very dark.
We saw some very interesting things including millions of spot shrimp and a very weird looking walking lantern fish. There were some of the biggest giant plumose anemones I’ve ever seen on the rocky fringe before the drop.
The south side was angled but the north side was a vertical drop. We also saw some of the biggest rock scallops I’ve ever seen.
We left out of Shelter Cove and motored 7-1/2 miles north to it.
It was a trip I’ll never forget.

And while I got you here, you mentioned Fort Ross and north. This is my home. There’s the wreck in Fort Ross cove. There’s also the wreck of the Norlina off of South Gerstle. A 365’ cargo ship.
I have dived everything from right below the lighthouse at Pt. Reyes (that was scary) up to Delgada Canyon and so many points in between.
Right now our focus is on Stillwater Cove and purple urchin removal. That is all I am doing until further notice.
But I have dives Tomales Bay, Elephant Rock, other points south of Bodega Bay, the Bodega Bay Jetties, That is an ass kicker! A ton of sites in Sonoma County. I certified in Gerstle Cove. Sea Ranch, fish Rocks out of Anchor Bay.
I’ve dived all the pinnacles including Colby Reef between Albion Bay and VanDamme and there are so many. I’ve dived Arena Rock several times. The list is too numerous to put in one post. You’re right, most of these people have absolutely no idea what any if this is,
and maybe it should stay that way.
Wow! What a cool find you are. Finally someone who gets it! Thanks for joining.

 

[NW Dive Dawg]

I’ve dived Arena Rock several times.

Eric...... I would have to say that Arena Rock (CA) and Duncan Rock (WA) are the pinnacles of my diving career. I only was able to dive Arena Rock once and it was probably the best dive of my life.

 

[Wallowa]

I put together an expedition and dived Delgada Canyon 24 years ago with three other divers.
Incredibly eerie place, very deep, very dark.
We saw some very interesting things including millions of spot shrimp and a very weird looking walking lantern fish. There were some of the biggest giant plumose anemones I’ve ever seen on the rocky fringe before the drop.
The south side was angled but the north side was a vertical drop. We also saw some of the biggest rock scallops I’ve ever seen.
We left out of Shelter Cove and motored 7-1/2 miles north to it.
It was a trip I’ll never forget.

And while I got you here, you mentioned Fort Ross and north. This is my home. There’s the wreck in Fort Ross cove. There’s also the wreck of the Norlina off of South Gerstle. A 365’ cargo ship.
I have dived everything from right below the lighthouse at Pt. Reyes (that was scary) up to Delgada Canyon and so many points in between.
Right now our focus is on Stillwater Cove and purple urchin removal. That is all I am doing until further notice.
But I have dives Tomales Bay, Elephant Rock, other points south of Bodega Bay, the Bodega Bay Jetties, That is an ass kicker! A ton of sites in Sonoma County. I certified in Gerstle Cove. Sea Ranch, fish Rocks out of Anchor Bay.
I’ve dived all the pinnacles including Colby Reef between Albion Bay and VanDamme and there are so many. I’ve dived Arena Rock several times. The list is too numerous to put in one post. You’re right, most of these people have absolutely no idea what any if this is,
and maybe it should stay that way.
Wow! What a cool find you are. Finally someone who gets it! Thanks for joining.

Yup Bascom from Scripps was the first to really describe Delgada bathymetry in his book "Submarine Canyons"....long store short, while diving off a DF&G research boat we did them a "favor" for the skipper [classified ] .... they put the Zodiac down for Dr. DeMartini and myself to dive the true head of the canyon right at "Seal Rock" at base of the Lost Coast range...cyn starts at a 30 degree cleft and just keeps going and going, steeper and deeper....upwelling and nutrients make that cyn an aquarium....60-70 feet visibility that day and sharing it with my mentor and the best marine biologist I have ever met...."Dr. D"...I have done a lot of dives in La Jolla cyn and nothing, but nothing compares to the Delgada...still have the chart on my wall....small world indeed, I have dived and surveyed all those locations you named except Tomales and south of Bodega...got permission to trespass and dived the Arena LH point....heavy duty energy there! Running transects in Arena Cove where out of nowhere schools of salmon swam through us....truly the diving north of Fort Ross is magical...I was honored and privileged to be the DSO at HSU for 25 years and making dives from Alaska to tip of Baja....plus survey work on all the Channel Islands. What a ride!

Will close with two quotes from McMurray's book "Dark Descent": "Life is either a daring adventure or it is nothing" [Helen Keller] and "Too much of a good thing can be wonderful" [Mae West]....DM me and we will exchange emails and phone #s...

Stay Safe....

DSO

 

[Nick_Radov]

What makes you think I don’t have good fundamental dive skills?
What, just because I’m not GUE trained means I don’t have good foundational dive skills? Really??

You seem upset, not sure why. I made no statement about your dive skills and don't really care. Even divers who have good fundamental skills already can benefit from DIR training, if they approach it with an open mind and positive attitude. All divers could benefit from DIR, but DIR is not for all divers.

We tried to get an instructor here. We had a venue, a pool, and an ocean. This is where we would have been applying the schooling so don’t you think this is where the training should have taken place? What happened to “GLOBAL Underwater Explorers”? Or is it just “wherever it’s nice” explorers?

Have you read the recent issues of Quest magazine? GUE and its members are involved in amazing research and exploration projects happening all over the globe, including some remote and challenging locations.

But this isn't some kind of contest over who has the toughest local conditions. It's like, "When I was your age we had to swim 5 miles uphill to the dive site through 90ft swells while sharks bit our legs off and visibility was only -10ft. And we liked it!". Come on.

Why send 4 guys to Monterey or LA for a week when one instructor can come up here. We were willing to put him up first class and pay everything he wanted.
So they went all the way up to Seattle instead.

Sometimes plans fall through and schedules don't align. Don't take it personally. A lot has changed in 25 years, no need to hold a grudge.

Regardless of financial issues, the logistics are easier at an instructor's home base. They have everything dialed in and so when the inevitable problems come up it's easier to keep the class on track. That's why I went "all the way up to Seattle" when I took Fundamentals back in 2001.

So what is the sound like? Calmer than here?

I assume you mean Puget Sound. Most classes in the Seattle area do the open water skills dives at Alki Beach, which is usually pretty calm. This allows students to focus on the course content without distractions from environmental conditions.