Attitudes Toward DIR Divers

[nadwidny]

I

Sorry for this long missive......this thread has degenerated to belly bumping and mis-information.....I

You expected different in this thread?? You must be new here.

 

[ginti]

I was asked to give an example of a Black Swan diving event [#606] but unfortunately this discussion has become very contentious and is now laced with "you said" misquotes and obviously wounded egos, which if unfortunate. The female diver mentioned in my Black Swan event was and is a stout safe diver who had it under control in those circumstances; she was providing for her own safety. The diver that offered her a reg and anchored her between the rocks was a DM who just made life easier for her, but she had it covered. No team effort could have replaced the individual survival skills each diver exhibited; no line on dive plan would either.

Hey @Wallowa , I like your way of reasoning and I think I agree on many points with you.

Just one point. In the "GUE" philosophy, the situation you described above is the perfect example of a well functioning team. A group of self-reliant divers, trained enough (enough = very highly) for the dives they do, who would just make their life easier in case of black swan events

See it as a form of redundancy.

The only situation where you may see people not being "completely" self reliant is when they are fresh of a class and they are building experience, although getting out of the water must always be something they are able to do alone (in case of sudden separation). Also, in this case dives should in theory been performed in very easy environmental conditions.

That said, you don't have to like it - it's just to clarify.

Personally, I am a fond believer that as long as you don't damage others or the environment, you should do whatever you want

 

[Celt]

I know nothing about DIR only what I’ve read here. All training agencies have rules and regulations to operate. If you don’t like it stay away. Do your own thing. Of course you can dive safely and efficiently solo and with whatever gear suits you. The most efficient system we found was a team of 4 divers and a supervisor. A diver in the water working, a diver on standby, a diver on deco if necessary ( surface preferably) a diver resting ( surface interval) and a diver supervisor running everything. Without a chamber deco is done on a stage in the water. The diver in the water is always in communication with the standby and supervisor. With less divers the job is scaled down to suit. A diver on their own is the least efficient. A simple system would be 2 divers. One in the water and one on standby. They’ll do twice as much as a diver on their own. Correct me if I’m wrong do DIR divers get in the water all at the same time. This seems a real waste of diving time.

 

[Wallowa]

Hey Celt,

Thanks for the down load of your dive organization....what you describe is closer to a commercial diving operation here that conforms to our OSHA/NOAA/CG etc standards......it sounds like it is tried and true and working for you....I will let a DIR person answer your question....we seldom dive from a platform [boat etc] in my area and almost always off the shore, so while it is sound planning your organizational plan would not be feasible for us....sounds like the "working diver" you describe is our solo survey diver; we have two UW but surveying different locations.

As an aside, climbed Skellig Michael and boat skipper that took us out was an old timer like myself, he had been a national spearfishing competitor back in the day....man, what I would give to dive the walls on SM! Now that the Vikings are not raiding it!

DSO

 

[jadairiii]

I fell asleep last night trolling on DecoStop, October 26, 1999, glad this thread hasn't changed while I was sleeping....

 

[Eric Sedletzky]

You seem upset, not sure why. I made no statement about your dive skills and don't really care. Even divers who have good fundamental skills already can benefit from DIR training, if they approach it with an open mind and positive attitude. All divers could benefit from DIR, but DIR is not for all divers.

Have you read the recent issues of Quest magazine? GUE and its members are involved in amazing research and exploration projects happening all over the globe, including some remote and challenging locations.

But this isn't some kind of contest over who has the toughest local conditions. It's like, "When I was your age we had to swim 5 miles uphill to the dive site through 90ft swells while sharks bit our legs off and visibility was only -10ft. And we liked it!". Come on.

Sometimes plans fall through and schedules don't align. Don't take it personally. A lot has changed in 25 years, no need to hold a grudge.

Regardless of financial issues, the logistics are easier at an instructor's home base. They have everything dialed in and so when the inevitable problems come up it's easier to keep the class on track. That's why I went "all the way up to Seattle" when I took Fundamentals back in 2001.

I assume you mean Puget Sound. Most classes in the Seattle area do the open water skills dives at Alki Beach, which is usually pretty calm. This allows students to focus on the course content without distractions from environmental conditions.

Like I said, I have absolutely no interest in pursuing a GUE Fundamentals certification.
That was a long time ago and that want has come and gone, but thank you so much anyway for your concern. I know you were just trying to be helpfull.
I was frankly a little upset at myself and a quite irritated that I found myself wrapped up in this thread. Those are hours of my life I can’t get back, but then @Wallowa showed up and suddenly it became all worth it!
You seem like a nice guy, so I’m going to leave this conversation where it’s at and bail while it’s still somewhat civil. These DIR threads can tend to go off a cliff and I don’t see anything productive being accomplished here any further, it’s just circling now.
I got the nugget I was looking for.
Thank you

 

[Celt]

Hey Celt,

Thanks for the down load of your dive organization....what you describe is closer to a commercial diving operation here that conforms to our OSHA/NOAA/CG etc standards......it sounds like it is tried and true and working for you....I will let a DIR person answer your question....we seldom dive from a platform [boat etc] in my area and almost always off the shore, so while it is sound planning your organizational plan would not be feasible for us....sounds like the "working diver" you describe is our solo survey diver; we have two UW but surveying different locations.

As an aside, climbed Skellig Michael and boat skipper that took us out was an old timer like myself, he had been a national spearfishing competitor back in the day....man, what I would give to dive the walls on SM! Now that the Vikings are not raiding it!

DSO

All diving should be organised professionally in order to make best use of the divers and available time. The divers are rotating in the system I was describing and can do a lot of work in 8 hours even with basic scuba. Ballinskelligs is a beautiful place and Skellig Michael has been described as The jewel in the Irish Crown.

 

[Wallowa]

All diving should be organised professionally in order to make best use of the divers and available time. The divers are rotating in the system I was describing and can do a lot of work in 8 hours even with basic scuba. Ballinskelligs is a beautiful place and Skellig Michael has been described as The jewel in the Irish Crown.

Celt,

SM is indeed the jewel....in awe of the monks that lived out there in stone bee hives under such harsh conditions and repeated Viking raids.

Here in USA not all diving has to be under the supervision, standards or auspices of any public agency or government organization, nor do I believe is it appropriate for non-commercial dives. Hopefully we divers can thwart the taking away from the individual diver the freedom to make the best decisions for their dive circumstances. Certifying agencies and educational entities can impose diving safety or training standards to qualify for diving within their programs. But here divers do not have to subscribe to their standards if they choose not to dive under the auspices of an organization or institution. Only differentiation I might add is our dive standards when imposed are supposed to be entirely geared toward diver safety and not the economy of dive resources and personnel. Commercial diving standards attempt to do both.

Thanks for your posts, always helpful to hear new or unknown perspectives and hopefully learn from them.

DSO

 

[Celt]

Celt,

SM is indeed the jewel....in awe of the monks that lived out there in stone bee hives under such harsh conditions and repeated Viking raids.

Here in USA not all diving has to be under the supervision, standards or auspices of any public agency or government organization, nor do I believe is it appropriate for non-commercial dives. Hopefully we divers can thwart the taking away from the individual diver the freedom to make the best decisions for their dive circumstances. Certifying agencies and educational entities can impose diving safety or training standards to qualify for diving within their programs. But here divers do not have to subscribe to their standards if they choose not to dive under the auspices of an organization or institution. Only differentiation I might add is our dive standards when imposed are supposed to be entirely geared toward diver safety and not the economy of dive resources and personnel. Commercial diving standards attempt to do both.

Thanks for your posts, always helpful to hear new or unknown perspectives and hopefully learn from them.

DSO

Agree 100 % individual divers are and should be free to conduct their dives as they see fit. It’s their hobby and their lives. Nice talking to you.

 

[Nick_Radov]

Correct me if I’m wrong do DIR divers get in the water all at the same time. This seems a real waste of diving time.

Most of our dives are just for fun rather than work, so I guess from that perspective it's all a "waste". But it's sure nice to have your teammates right there in the water with you to point out interesting animals or catch your navigation errors or cut off the loose monofilament line that got caught around your fin.

Major exploration or research projects run on DIR principles might have multiple separate teams of 2+ divers each on staggered schedules with different assignments like setup, push, support, cleanup, etc. Plus a dedicated surface crew with a supervisor to keep everyone on track. For safety reasons they generally wouldn't send anyone into the water alone. Maybe that's less efficient. We can always return another day.

The procedures you describe with rotating a single diver down at a time are more typically used in commercial, military, and public safety diving. They could perhaps benefit from adopting a subset of DIR elements but really it's a whole different world.