Attitudes Toward DIR Divers

[Wallowa]

You may see this as the truth, but my experience diving with teams tells me otherwise. A true team is greater than the sum of its components.

No a team is composed of components and the weakest link can be any component on that team. The weakest member of the team will always define the safety of the team. Loss of individual accountability for personal safety is loss of safety.

Oh so it seems to me....

DSO

 

[Lorenzoid]

No a team is composed of components and the weakest link can be any component on that team. The weakest member of the team will always define the safety of the team. Loss of individual accountability for personal safety is loss of safety.

Oh so it seems to me....

DSO

You bet. But a team should not undertake a dive that overly challenges the team member with the least experience. Normally, because of all that training and emphasis on practice practice practice that non-DIR divers sometimes poke fun at, you're doing dives for which every team member has plenty of training and experience; there isn't a weakest link, barring a medical issue of course.

 

[Wallowa]

I agree that equipment standardization may sometimes be over-emphasized. An extra D-ring is probably not going to do any harm to the individual or the team. But keep in mind that standardization is not just equipment, it's also procedures and gases. It can feel kind of liberating to know in advance how certain things are going to go, without explicitly covering them in the dive briefing. Everyone is going to handle certain situations the same way. You know everyone is breathing the same gas and that they analyzed it, and the likelihood of something unexpected happening because of O2 percentage is extremely low. I find that that feeling of predictability makes my dives more relaxed and enjoyable.

True that. But what it boils down for making "you" safer and having an enjoyable dive is your individual dive plan. 'Predictability' is always uncertain, the Black Swan is near and "how certain things are going to go" may not go that way. Just saying that trusting in others on a dive is not a vouch safe for you being safe. Always comes back to whether you make the correct choices and your competence when the "what if" happens.

But hey, I could be wrong....my way is simply my way.

DSO

 

[crofrog]

Predictability' is always uncertain, the Black Swan is near and "how certain things are going to go" may not go that way.

Give me some examples of black swans in diving?

 

[Lorenzoid]

'Predictability' is always uncertain ....

Channeling your inner Yogi Berra today?

Seriously, though, predictability is about probabilities. It's not about trust in teammates, the equipment, or anything else specifically--it's about the probabilities. Minimizing the uncertainty. With the same training, equipment, understandings of emergency procedure handling, etc., the probability that the dive will go smoothly is high enough for me to be able to relax more than I might if some of those aspects were less certain.

No matter how we prepare or conduct ourselves, there is some probability of a bad outcome every time we get in the water, and the only way to reduce it to zero is to not dive.

 

[Wallowa]

You bet. But a team should not undertake a dive that overly challenges the team member with the least experience. Normally, because of all that training and emphasis on practice practice practice that non-DIR divers sometimes poke fun at, you're doing dives for which every team member has plenty of training and experience; there isn't a weakest link, barring a medical issue of course.

OK...addendum ..."non-DIR" ?? Divers of any ilk should be trained to levels of individual competence and should indeed practice, practice, practice as experience is in the end the best teacher. In my non-DIR world practice and training never ended. And ultimately successful experiences were the best teacher.

I agree that before the dive the weakest link should determine the dive plan, but remember the plan never goes exactly as planned. When the unexpected occurs the competence of the individual divers will determine their survival; not as a team effort but as individual decisions and actions.

Or so it seems to me.

DSO

[Hey Berra took that path! ]

 

[Wallowa]

Give me some examples of black swans in diving?

"The black swan theory or theory of black swan events is a metaphor that describes an event that comes as a surprise, has a major effect, and is often inappropriately rationalized after the fact with the benefit of hindsight. The term is based on a Latin expression which presumed that black swans did not exist."

Examples? If you dive long enough you will at some point be startled/surprised by the expected and unplanned for; not if but when. The outcome is event and reaction dependent. Funny as much as we train our responses to emergencies will always remain uncertain but again the more diving experiences you have will shift the odds in your favor of making the correct responses. No guarantees only 'probabilities'.

 

[SpeedyJ]

No a team is composed of components and the weakest link can be any component on that team. The weakest member of the team will always define the safety of the team. Loss of individual accountability for personal safety is loss of safety.

Oh so it seems to me....

DSO

This is a fundamental difference in philosophy (and likely personality as well) - one approach is saying "I need to be the best I can be" the other is "I need to be the best teammate I can be."

There isn't a drop in accountability when you take a team approach, instead you have accountability to both yourself and your team, and your teammates have the same. This also means there are checks that help to catch things that would otherwise be missed.

Some people are not wired to be on teams, they operate better individually, and when placed on a team they continue to operate independently. We see this in the workplace all the time. But there is no question as to their capability & capacity vs. that of a high performing team.

 

[KenE]

This is a fundamental difference in philosophy (and likely personality as well) - one approach is saying "I need to be the best I can be" the other is "I need to be the best teammate I can be."

There isn't a drop in accountability when you take a team approach, instead you have accountability to both yourself and your team, and your teammates have the same. This also means there are checks that help to catch things that would otherwise be missed.

Some people are not wired to be on teams, they operate better individually, and when placed on a team they continue to operate independently. We see this in the workplace all the time. But there is no question as to their capability & capacity vs. that of a high performing team.

I won't argue that a team is better than an individual when a team is needed. However, there are many tasks and hobbies that do not require teams. For a large project a team is needed, but I don't need a team to take a piss. Just identifying the extremes. Some believe that diving does not require a team, I believe that some diving does and some diving doesn't. To argue one way or another is significantly dependent on the dive plan.

The inherent problem with teams is you will find some members depend highly on the team instead of improving their own skills. When it comes to safety this is a very bad situation. I have experienced several dives where I experienced conditions that moved me away from the team/buddy and I had to rely on my own to overcome and resolve the issue. I have also experienced the team member who made a bad decision which put the whole group in a bad position. So, the team is not the definitive solution as some are trying to argue.

As I said before, there are some dives that require a team and others that don't. I will argue that not all diving is benefited with a team. I also believe that we should dive and let dive, what works for us may not work for everyone. This does not have to be a bad thing!

Let's all enjoy our time underwater!

 

[Wallowa]

This is a fundamental difference in philosophy (and likely personality as well) - one approach is saying "I need to be the best I can be" the other is "I need to be the best teammate I can be."

There isn't a drop in accountability when you take a team approach, instead you have accountability to both yourself and your team, and your teammates have the same. This also means there are checks that help to catch things that would otherwise be missed.

Some people are not wired to be on teams, they operate better individually, and when placed on a team they continue to operate independently. We see this in the workplace all the time. But there is no question as to their capability & capacity vs. that of a high performing team.

Truly a difference in philosophy and approach to personal safety. Diving is not the workplace; high risks underwater does not merely result in threats to productivity but to a diver's life. Too often UW attempts at rescue result in the death of the rescuer. 'Checking things that would otherwise be missed' is before the fact; after the fact when a life hangs in balance only a self-rescue should be paramount. UW nothing is assured but if you are not the 'best you can be' your odds of surviving an untold event are greatly diminished. Even the strongest diver can not assure the survival of another diver in the chaos and confusion of a true emergency.

Last comments on this from me; if you rely on the Team to save you, that in my opinion could be a fatal miss judgement. To survive UW you must be self-sufficient. A dive 'team' is a group of solo divers in the same ocean; you can't and should not absolve your responsibility for your safety to anyone, it is your life you are the only one ultimately responsible to protect it.

Good discussions and ideas from those that have posted, remember my approaches are solely my own......make up your own minds about what works best for you and keeps you safe to dive another day.

DSO