Attitudes Toward DIR Divers

[wetb4igetinthewater]

This is an interesting take on the situation, however, with most GUE instructors, you can't get the training without getting the equipment and procedure dogma. I don't associate good diving skills with DIR/GUE exclusively, I believe good skills can be attained without drinking the Kool-Aid. I believe there is more to DIR/GUE than just equipment and skills. I believe it is a rigid acceptance to a set of standards, some of those standards are just not necessary for recreational diving. I am not saying that they are not useful, but not necessary. I would question whether some of the skills makes diving any more safe or pleasurable, both are very subjective. I know many divers who are very safe and enjoy their dives without perfecting all the skills taught by GUE.

Before I took fundies, I was told "you don't have to drink the Kool Aid, just go for the skills." And that's what I did. I still dive air, solo, a Prism2 rebreather.

I do find tremendous value in fundies for improving recreational diving skills. It is a recreational skills course after all.

Now will any GUE instructor dive with me? Maybe not. Not a concerns of mine. Will some GUE divers dive with me? Yes. So what's the problem? Sure there are those who have drunk the Kool Aid and are obnoxious, but fortunately, that's not the case in my region.

The reason I advocate fundies so much is the pervasive mediocrity in the industry. And I pass on the same advice that I received. Go back to your split fins and jacket style BCD when you are done, suicide clips, whatever you like when you dive. Just go for the skills improvement. If anyone wants to take fundies in my area and don't have/want blade fins or a BP/W, or longhose, I'm happy to loan out mine for free.

People need to understand that the dogma/equipment/procedures is all about what happens when things go seriously wrong and you are very deep in a cave. Which doesn't apply to 99.9999999% of divers (I think that percentage is likely too low). If people were to just simply take that into account, there'd be a lot less bickering.

In the meantime, I steer people towards RAID instructors as they at least have objective performance requirements that include trim and depth change during skills.

 

[Lorenzoid]

I was with you, Kosta, until the first sentence here:

People need to understand that the dogma/equipment/procedures is all about what happens when things go seriously wrong and you are very deep in a cave. Which doesn't apply to 99.9999999% of divers (I think that percentage is likely too low). If people were to just simply take that into account, there'd be a lot less bickering.

Things can go dangerously wrong in places other than deep in a cave. Granted, for most of what can go wrong on an OW rec dive, and weighting that by the degree of danger, the "dogma/equipment/procedures" may be overkill. Who really knows. Some of us are okay with potential overkill, while others of us are not. To each his own.

 

[wetb4igetinthewater]

I was with you, Kosta, until the first sentence here:


Things can go dangerously wrong in places other than deep in a cave. Granted, for most of what can go wrong on an OW rec dive, and weighting that by the degree of danger, the "dogma/equipment/procedures" may be overkill. Who really knows. Some of us are okay with potential overkill, while others of us are not. To each his own.

it absolutely is overkill. However, my understanding is that they want consistent procedures no matter what the dive is. I can understand that, not trying to break habits/procedures and introduce new variations, just build upon previous foundations.

Like what is the point of always diving nitrox? I believe (and someone from GUE can correct me) is that you always check your gas when diving nitrox. Just like on any deep cave dive on trimix, you also check gas of every cylinder.

Now some will say that you should check your gas even when getting air fills, but that's not an industry standard for diving air. It is an standard for nitrox.

As you go up the GUE ladder, you build on what you were already trained. It makes sense. However, it results in misunderstanding and bickering. How often has this topic come up?

BTW, my fundies instructor will be canonized for performing the miracle of putting up with me, as I challenged everything. Once I got it (and it was after fundies), I passed onto my instructor what I finally had figured out. It would have made things easier for him if he would have explaned to me what I have written here.

 

[Lorenzoid]

it absolutely is overkill.

I dunno. Take Minimum Gas, for example. When that is taught in Fundies, maybe it will prompt a student to think more carefully about how much of a margin of safety they should reserve for whatever depth/conditions. Maybe a diver does not really need to account for a full minute getting situated at the bottom before ascending while sharing gas--maybe the Minimum Gas formula in its dogmatic form is overkill--but as taught at the OW rec level at least maybe it will leave divers with a better idea of how to determine how much gas to reserve. In other words, maybe at the rec level it's more about developing the mindset for judging how much gas to reserve than dogmatically employing GUE's specific Minimum Gas formula?

Like what is the point of always diving nitrox?

Again, I can't articulate with certainty the exact reasons GUE insists on a standard gas (EAN32) at the OW rec level, other than for consistency as a diver gets more advanced. But I know it's not a hardship for me or anyone I know. On all of the tropical dive vacations I have taken with friends who have never heard of DIR, we all seem to go for the nitrox.

Most of the bickering seems to be over how the DIR stuff may or may not be applicable at the rec level, and the bickering seems silly to me because when you think about the specifics, such as team diving and primary donate, it's really not all that different from what many mainstream divers are doing. As applied to cave and tech, there seems to be less bickering, because a whole lot of cave and tech divers employ gear and techniques that overlap what DIR teaches. Then later up the ladder, when one gets into CCR, there seems to be disagreement again.

 

[Zach The Diver]

That's the most ridiculous thing I've read on this scuba forum. My experiences with GUE proves they have a bad attitude with no quality control, all the way to the top of the organization.

Your experience “proves” GUE has no QC? Are we just making stuff up now?

 

[Chavodel8en]

Honestly, I dont know why there is so much acrimony about DIR. Here's the thing, if you're not interested in DIR, you dont ever have to interact with it!!

I have never ever in my life dove with anyone who identified as DIR, or pushed DIR philosophies. Naturally, as I would expect DIR divers to dive with other DIR divers, and not with me. Which is fine.

My only exposure to DIR is online, mainly on these forums. I can read what I want--- and if I dont like it -- guess what, I can simply stop reading it!! Its a magical skill that I have developed.

As it is, I will read, consider the DIR perspective, adopt some things, reject others. I use a necklace -- but in the "streamlined" 40" hose set up. I use a BP/W, but also ditchable weight (since I use a wetsuit), in these chilly local waters.

Nothing a DIR diver says can ever really upset me -- because I can simply skip to the next post. And Im open to at least consider different opinions.

 

[Lorenzoid]

As it is, I will read, consider the DIR perspective, adopt some things, reject others. I use a necklace -- but in the "streamlined" 40" hose set up. I use a BP/W, but also ditchable weight (since I use a wetsuit), in these chilly local waters.

Maybe you have dived with someone who thinks of themself as a "DIR diver" and you didn't know it? For simple rec dives I use a 40-in "streamlined OW" configuration, too. It's not what GUE teaches--and a Fundies instructor will point out perceived disadvantages--but I don't consider it some kind of radical deviation that's totally inconsistent with DIR principles. And nowhere does GUE say you cannot have ditchable weight--this is a myth!

 

[rongoodman]

Your experience “proves” GUE has no QC? Are we just making stuff up now?

There appears to be some history involved. This isn't the first time this poster has made similar comments regarding DIR/GUE.

 

[JoeTPhilly]

I think GUE has done a decent job over the years of changing the perceptions most have of GUE divers. For example, DIR is a no longer even a term and you don't hear the S word. However, bad perceptions still persist based on this past and continued on by people living in the past.

Prior to GUE training, I got some of these perceptions from reading here on Scubaboard. I had never even met a GUE diver but just from reading here I gathered they were all evil, kool aid drinking divers yada yada yada. I then took Fundies and saw how wrong those impressions were. GUE divers are passionate divers and will go above and beyond to help you become a better diver.

I do experience some of the negative attitudes. When I travel, I usually work in some diving and will be on my own. There are usually newer divers so they may be curious of my gear but have never experienced any negative attitudes from them. When I experience negative attitudes it is 100% from dive professionals and instructors from other agencies looking for an argument.

 

[sea_ledford]

There really isn't all that much of a market for Peak Performance Buoyancy, either. I was a professional for 20 years and never saw it taught, let alone taught it myself. It's primary existence is on ScubaBoard forums where the people who mock it seem to think it is the first course all OW students take after certification.

That was the primary class I taught as a PADI instructor when I was working at a dive shop. That was partly because I did sales as well so getting the time to run an OW course meant working 3 weeks straight, which I wasn't interested in.

I had probably 20-30 students over the 1.5 years I worked there. Spent most of the the time taking weight away from people. Once they were no longer 10 lbs overweighted their problems magically disappeared!