Attitudes Toward DIR Divers

[Boarderguy]

A good buddy can help you out a lot if you're interested in honest feedback.

 

[wetb4igetinthewater]

You had to conform to the equipment before they would let you in the Fundies class. You may not have stayed with the equipment, but you had to conform to enroll. My experience was similar, but I could not conform due to injury. I use the same LDS as you, good people, just could not meet the requirements and therefore would not meet the needs of other students.

I took it at 5th Dimension, before 8 was opened (the LDS I recommend in the Seattle area, for West Sound it is Jade Scuba).

Conformance is only for the course.

An injury (guessing here) could make Hogarthian a non option. Sorry about that.

 

[VikingDives]

My comments seem to have been misunderstood. I was not talking about OW students at all.

I was talking about a class that was essentially GUE Fundamentals, and the attempt was to market it to established OW divers. Those are the people who were not interested in it. They had more than a few dives under their belts, and they had decided that the skills they had were all they needed for the dives they were doing.

With new OW students, I very much taught them to be neutrally buoyant and in horizontal trim.

I understood, though I may not have expressed my thoughts well.

Interestingly, I have a fairly large number of students who come to me wanting to learn those same fundies-type skills. If they don't aspire to tech diving, I teach them (and a fair number of them too) in the SDI version of PPB.

The point I was trying to make is people don't know what they don't know.

 

[KenE]

An injury (guessing here) could make Hogarthian a non option. Sorry about that.

Actually two different injuries, neck fracture on right side in the military and more recent left arm fracture and dislocation at the shoulder. Unfortunately reaching behind be or to doubles valve is impossible. I require a left shoulder buckle to get a BC donned. Started with a jacket BCD and waiting till it requires or at least looks like it requires replacement. Then will move to BP/W with a single buckle. Doubles is just out of the question. So, conforming to GUE equipment standards is not an option, but I won't let that stop me from diving and improving skills.

 

[happy-diver]

I told my ailing demented memoryless 90 yr old father that people go around
these days, believing and telling others and celebrating, that they don't know
what they don't know, and then shrouded in a cloak of thought, and disbelief
he called me an idiot, and remembered not to speak to me for the rest of the day
until he forgot

 

[wetb4igetinthewater]

Actually two different injuries, neck fracture on right side in the military and more recent left arm fracture and dislocation at the shoulder. Unfortunately reaching behind be or to doubles valve is impossible. I require a left shoulder buckle to get a BC donned. Started with a jacket BCD and waiting till it requires or at least looks like it requires replacement. Then will move to BP/W with a single buckle. Doubles is just out of the question. So, conforming to GUE equipment standards is not an option, but I won't let that stop me from diving and improving skills.

May I suggest Don Pierce owner of Off the Hook diving in Lacey for a fundies like workshop on sidemount?

 

[Wibble]

This is an interesting take on the situation, however, with most GUE instructors, you can't get the training without getting the equipment and procedure dogma. I don't associate good diving skills with DIR/GUE exclusively, I believe good skills can be attained without drinking the Kool-Aid. I believe there is more to DIR/GUE than just equipment and skills. I believe it is a rigid acceptance to a set of standards, some of those standards are just not necessary for recreational diving. I am not saying that they are not useful, but not necessary. I would question whether some of the skills makes diving any more safe or pleasurable, both are very subjective. I know many divers who are very safe and enjoy their dives without perfecting all the skills taught by GUE.

GUE don't have a monopoly on dogma although they do have pretty rigorous kit configurations. Of course GUE divers don't always dive with inappropriate kit for the dive, especially exploration. Many are seen with alternative configurations as the standard kit isn't appropriate for all dives.

Most people here would accept that GUE Fundamentals is a very good course getting divers core skills sorted out. GUE does this in a standard configuration as it's easier to teach and measure the outcomes.

More advanced courses are reliant upon the system. They're unlikely to take a MOD1 qualified and experienced diver and allow them to do CCR2 without starting from the beginning -- expensive both in terms of course fees, kit purchase and time to learn "their ways".

Other agencies mix and match as required as they're less committed to specific configurations. MOD1 qualified should mean MOD2 with another agency is just fine.

Kind of live and let live. Diving beyond the basic recreational levels is mostly about oneself having the wherewithal to understand and honestly evaluate your skills, then improve as required. Self reliance is key as teams are not always applicable nor available. Go diving.

DIR is pretty meaningless these days anyway as most people's equipment tends to be influenced by DIR configurations anyway. Except for that strange GUE JJ CCR thing; as anyone who isn't wedded to the GUE way of CCR diving will never understand it, so it's a good enough reason to ignore it altogether.

TBH most of the GUE divers I know are more than happy to dive with non-GUE divers and they don't do all their processes. They are bloody good divers though; really well practised and solid in the water; great for a couple of hours of deco ascent.


Oh, why hasn't anyone mentioned the UTD sidemount "Z-mount" monstrosity! Take the simplicity and resilience of sidemount; add loads of hoses and a "manifold"; et volla! a complex system with more flaws than backmount and requiring a training course for dogma indoctrination! UTD takes the biscuit for dogma! It's hilarious to listen to the UTD podcast where they gush forth about the benefits of using air with oxygen deco as opposed to nitrox, ratio deco (it's so easy!), plus strange ways of describing things.

 

[Zach The Diver]

May I suggest Don Pierce owner of Off the Hook diving in Lacey for a fundies like workshop on sidemount?

He’s a good dude.

 

[crofrog]

Look at all the reefs and fisheries that are actually destroyed by boating and fishing. Divers may cause inadvertent damage, but nothing compared to the surface dwellers. Nobody is going out there saying let's stand on the reef and hug fire coral. They're trained poorly because heavy and knees are the easiest for the masses. A flatter trim and skills taught as such would benefit everyone without all the silliness that comes with the dogma divers.

This is a red herring at best. Because everyone else messes it up it’s ok that divers do?

Because the instructors can’t teach neutrally bouyant we should allow the bar to be low?

In my experience regardless of where you set the bar the same number of people clear it and the same number of people complain about it.

 

[crofrog]

As much as I like what I have gotten out of GUE so far, I have always cringed at GUE's use of the word "excellence" and implication that all GUE divers strive for excellence. All I strive to do is improve from wherever I am right now. Maybe GUE sends a mixed message, because I have had instructors tell me that personal improvement is the real goal. In Fundies specifically, the message I got was never mind about passing, the goal is to make you a better diver.

I have not experienced the mocking tone you refer to. I guess maybe others have.

“Commit to excellence”

It doesn’t say that others can’t be excellent it doesn’t say that you are all excellent.

It’s stating that you should “be dedicated to becoming outstanding”

If you’re seeking to continually improve then you are very much committed to excellence. I’m not sure why it has a negative connotation in your head, and I’m not sure why other people feel attacked when someone else says they’re going to commit to excellence or that is an organizational saying.

Would you all prefer that it was something like “commit to being average” or maybe “pursue mediocrity”

If you feel attacked by someone or an organization saying commit to excellence that’s entirely in your head, because it isn’t saying anything about you.