Argon--pro and con

[limeyx]

Where do you get argon from in socal?

Dwayne

Ocean Adventures and Hollywood Divers have it (but call to check first as they may be waiting on a tank to come in)

I think both are around $9 for an AL6 fill? (Not sure as I dont really use it for most dives locally)

HD charges by the cft, and I am not sure if OA lists pricing for larger tanks or not.

 

[Rainer]

But that paper suggests getting any gas out of a suit by purging it with any other gas.

You're mis-reading that. For the air trials, they purged with air (six times); for the argon trials, they purged with argon (six times). Which gas matters.

So I'm back to wondering why filling the suit with argon and purging a few times will ensure that there's no more air in the suit, if jumping in the water and sinking a few feet until I feel a tight squeeze won't.

I don't believe they tested using hydrostatic pressure to remove the ambient air. Perhaps it works. The fact it wasn't tested, however, isn't a reason to conclude it doesn't help. I often do the same thing (I still also flush, once or twice).

Obviously with my method there is still some finite amount of air in the suit, but
1) the same is possibly true with the fill/purge method, and
2) what's the breaking point between argon being functional and argon being thwarted by some air?

I agree, there certainly has to be a tipping point. As mentioned earlier, this also matters less and less the deeper you go. If you start with 100% air in the suit and then go to 100', what's the ratio of gases in the suit now (hint: the vast majority is now argon)? Go to 200' and it's not even close. Obviously then, purging the air (however you want to achieve that) is most important for shallower dives.

 

[Blackwood]

You're mis-reading that. For the air trials, they purged with air (six times); for the argon trials, they purged with argon (six times). Which gas matters.

No, I think I read it right. I was using their suggestion that air purges out argon as effectively as argon purges out air to draw the conclusion that any gas will purge out any other gas, not that I could purge air with nitrogen and then expect to use pure argon or something like that.

Then I used that to refute my original hypothesis that it was a density thing.

I agree, there certainly has to be a tipping point. As mentioned earlier, this also matters less and less the deeper you go. If you start with 100% air in the suit and then go to 100', what's the ratio of gases in the suit now (hint: the vast majority is now argon)? Go to 200' and it's not even close. Obviously then, purging the air (however you want to achieve that) is most important for shallower dives.

Yup. Certainly true.

 

[Akimbo]

I'm quite convinced it makes a difference. I've done the (poorly controlled) personal trial now several times -- same dives, same conditions, same dive time, different inflation gas -- and I'm sold. As already said, if it's a placebo effect, I don't care. It's cheap and I feel warmer. In 46 degree water, that's important.

There is no doubt Argon makes a difference. From the theoretical 33% improvement to the ~20% average, the real issue is when does Argon become an appropriate solution? The compromise is between more underwear and the added lead compared to the cost, logistics, weight, maintenance, and complexity of Argon. It has been my experience that 20-33% improvement is impossible for individuals to reliably judge since thermal output can change by factors of 2-5. A small increase in metabolic thermal output (work) can easily offset the 20-33% thermal loss.

By the time you calculate the effects of hydrodynamics (from increased underwear or an Argon system), metabolic variabilities at the moment, air consumption, exertion levels, and psychological influence that 20% becomes a rounding error. The choice of Argon is a no-brainer on deep long tri-mix dives in the North Sea, much more arguable on Nitrox in the continental US.

Here are some conductivity numbers to compare:
http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/exposure-suits/367522-moisture-conductivity-air.html#post5694893

 

[rjack321]

If workload in diving is changing by a factor of 2-5 in diving you are doing something wrong.

 

[ucfdiver]

If workload in diving is changing by a factor of 2-5 in diving you are doing something wrong.

Not sure I understand the context of either of your statements? I would think that 2x extra heat output would be reasonable between swimming against flow/current and resting deco.

 

[rjack321]

Not sure I understand the context of either of your statements? I would think that 2x extra heat output would be reasonable between swimming against flow/current and resting deco.

Swim against current??

 

[ucfdiver]

Swim against current??

Some people don't own scooters, although I have no idea why....I don't swim anywhere I don't absolutely have to due to boat/site rules or a cave being too small.

 

[boulderjohn]

Some people don't own scooters, although I have no idea why....

I can help you with that answer.

 

[ucfdiver]

I can help you with that answer.

worth it!