Are you a vegetarian?

[DaleC]

I am enjoying the discussion and will cop to being one of the pranksters :mooner: I just think that the subject can be so divisive and, having heard it many many times, I never have seen one side persuade the other to change their views.

It is interesting that someone brought up the Jewish - no pork point as this is similar to my reasons for not eating meat in general (No I'm not Jewish). It is part of a faith that, at a certain point in my life, I decided to deepen my commitment to. There is no health or political motivation for me.
Like trying to convince a Jewish person that they should eat pork, trying to convince me to eat meat is an exercise that won't work. I used to eat meat. I liked the taste of meat. I've grown up on farms and enjoyed fishing. Have butchered cows, chicken, castrated sheep and even put down my own pets but like the Jewish and their ham sandwiches I just won't bite. It has nothing to do with the meat.

Having said that, you don't see a lot of Jews trying to convince non Jews to give up pork and likewise I don't try to "convert" others to becoming non meat eaters. It's a very personal choice in my mind, I know others don't walk the same path and I don't judge them for it. I don't concern myself with the "morality" of others (I have a hard enough time worrying about my own) and try to keep in mind that nobody likes a zealot. The only time I might comment is when someone asks me directly (and usually I joke around) or is considering making the same faith based commitments I have.

My wife is a "carnivore" as are my kids and most of our social group is as well. I never bring up the subject. We all know that I don't eat meat and they do and nobody complains or cares. If anything, it brings us closer together as a community. I cook delicious "meaty" meals for them and they reciprocate by cooking a vegetarian option for me. I appreciate the fact that we can think of others that way. I don't know if my actions will ever convince any of them to "switch sides" though I do believe you catch more bees with honey than vinegar. I do care that my kids see me modeling the behavior of sticking to a commitment even when it asks that you give up something you might otherwise desire (I loved ham and fishing). That will be infinitely more important to them in this lifetime than whether they eat meat or not.

I don't expect anyone to adopt my viewpoints nor do I feel the need to defend them. It is mainly a non issue to me. I do want to sit down with Papa bear though. Me with my veggie burger and he with his steak, and we'll hopefully talk about what is really important; diving!

 

[Papa_Bear]

First Jews don't proselytize anything as far as religion or its aspects! The problem is the Vegetarian group is usually committed to PETA and an extremist agenda that includes legislation like California Prop 2 that will drive farms out of the state and raise cost! People just hear some crap and believe it hook, line, and Sinker! If you say it is spiritual then that is the best reason to enjoy a steak since "Animals where put up on the earth for man" and the blood of Christ was the atonement for the spilling of blood in the final sacrifice! Some would tell you! I am not proselytizing in anyway except the freedom to do or eat what you want!

 

[sibermike7]

Why are there always polls about vegetarians, but never carnivors?

Like, duh! Open your eyes my good man. Look at the poll! Look at the numbers! Nobody ever wants to poll the vast majority! They wouldn't be able to handle the abundance of data!

 

[bfw]

Have butchered cows, chicken, castrated sheep and even put down my own pets but like the Jewish and their ham sandwiches I just won't bite. It has nothing to do with the meat......I cook delicious "meaty" meals for them and they reciprocate by cooking a vegetarian option for me. .....sticking to a commitment even when it asks that you give up something you might otherwise desire (I loved ham and fishing).

If I'm reading the above excerpts correctly, in their mutual context, you have no problem inflicting pain upon, killing, butchering, or cooking animals; you just won't actually put their flesh in your own digestive tract, and this is out of a religious or quasi-religious conviction. If this interpretation of where you draw the line is correct, I'm curious about its basis.

 

[sabbath999]

As a long-term vegetarian, I am always rather amazed and baffled by the reactions that many non-vegetarians have towards us.

I eat what I eat, it is my choice. I don't advertise it and I don't care what anybody else eats (as long as it isn't Soilent Green).

Often, when people find out (either when they bring it up in conversation or... as the case usually happens... or we end up at a meeting or social gathering together and I ask about ingredients of dishes) that I am a vegetarian, they go immediately into attack mode. "I can't do that, I would DIE if I couldn't eat meat three times a day, how can you do that? What's wrong with you that you don't eat meat? Are you NUTS?" Often, it is far worse than that.

What is it to them what I eat, or don't eat? I am not asking anybody to be a vegetarian, never have and never will. So why get on my case about my choice?

 

[sibermike7]

First Jews don't proselytize anything as far as religion or its aspects!

PapaBear, DaleC,
You're both wrong!!!
You've done taken the thread from the kitchen to the cathedral! I am expecting the almity mod to jump in any minute and yank the chain!

You've done got yourselves into a subject where your over your head with no BCD and a jammed weight belt, you be in trouble!

The reference to the Jewish folks was started by a self-confessed Jew to explain why he/she wouldn't partake of certain meats. Understandable. Interestingly, one (I believe it was a woman) even stated that though she was Jewish, she ate bacon!

Now where you're wrong is in stating that Jews don't proselytize their religion. Would you like to guess where THAT word entered our language? It comes from the Greek word proselutos found in the BIBLE! Proselyte is a transliteration of the Greek word. The Jews DID in fact (and still do my friends) proselytize. Shoot, why not? We ALL do that to some extent.

Any diver out there NOT guilty of proselytizing the non-diving community??

Ever try to buy a cheeseburger at the Burger King in Tel Aviv? They don't even allow the mixing of meat and cheese!! So they DO expect others to conform to THEIR beliefs.

Other than that, Papabear, you be right on target!!

The problem is the Vegetarian group is usually committed to PETA and an extremist agenda that includes legislation like California Prop 2 that will drive farms out of the state and raise cost! People just hear some crap and believe it hook, line, and Sinker! If you say it is spiritual then that is the best reason to enjoy a steak since "Animals where put up on the earth for man" and the blood of Christ was the atonement for the spilling of blood in the final sacrifice! Some would tell you! I am not proselytizing in anyway except the freedom to do or eat what you want!

 

[sibermike7]

As a long-term vegetarian, I am always rather amazed and baffled by the reactions that many non-vegetarians have towards us.

I eat what I eat, it is my choice. I don't advertise it and I don't care what anybody else eats (as long as it isn't Soilent Green).

Often, when people find out (either when they bring it up in conversation or... as the case usually happens... or we end up at a meeting or social gathering together and I ask about ingredients of dishes) that I am a vegetarian, they go immediately into attack mode. "I can't do that, I would DIE if I couldn't eat meat three times a day, how can you do that? What's wrong with you that you don't eat meat? Are you NUTS?" Often, it is far worse than that.

What is it to them what I eat, or don't eat? I am not asking anybody to be a vegetarian, never have and never will. So why get on my case about my choice?

Calm down, take a few deep breathes, your among friends now!
Read the posts. Most of the meateaters (and according to the poll, that is the majority) don't give a hoot that you'd rather wrestle a carrot then sink a juicy steak between your teeth.
They are like me, I'd invite you over to my house any time. More MEAT FOR ME!!!!!

 

[sambolino44]

What makes you think meat eaters have it wrong?

Maybe you just used my quote as an example, but if you're replying directly to me then apparently you have misunderstood me.

Why should they change?

It's my understanding that, even though there may be a vocal minority in opposition, the general consensus of the scientific community is that our current levels of consumption are unsustainable. I believe that it's wrong to pass on to later generations a world that is worse than the one we inherited when it's possible to avoid that outcome. I believe a world with more pollution, less genetic diversity is worse than the alternative.

Not all of us meat eaters, eat to the bursting point. Eating your proper portion is a different subject. Thats more akin to a good/healthy diet.

OK, point taken. I was exaggerating perhaps to make my point.

I would wager that most of the vegetarian/vegans would not be here today had their ancestors not been meat eaters. Times were harder back in the day and you needed the protein from a meat source. We didnt have nut farms and corner stores or Whole Foods down the street.

I'm not arguing that people never should have eaten meat, nor am I arguing that nobody should ever eat any meat now. I'm just saying that we, as a society, eat more meat than we should, and part of the reason for that is ignorance.

Do I care that animals are dying every minute because my $ goes into a system that perpetuates their demise? No. Its like any other subject where people want to think more of themselves than they are. Like global warming. Some people want to believe its all us. Some people dont want to let NATURE just do its thing. We are part of that cycle. We are just doing our thing.

We are part of that cycle, I agree. But one thing that makes us different from that part of the world that we call nature is that we have advantage, the resources, and the intelligence to make choices that aren't available to other life-forms. And our species is unique in it's ability to affect other species through those choices. We can decide: do we want to pass on to later generations a world with plenty of clean air, fresh water, incredible jungles and fantastic, fascinating wild animals, or a world devoid of all these things just because we didn't care?

If we actually, in some odd way, find an off chance to eat something to the point of its extinction then bravo for us. When you stop and ponder that, it may make more sense as to how difficult that would be.

This makes no sense. For one thing, our destruction of other species (maybe not by eating, but I don't think it makes much difference) is not "an off chance", it's happening at an incredible rate, and it's certainly not difficult; we're doing it without thinking about it. And your suggestion that I have not stopped and pondered this is condescending and insulting.

I have been in Grocery stores all over the world. From South America to Europe to Isreal.. Same thing can be found everywhere. MEAT. Readily available. It was when I was a kid and it is still there today. My milk products cost more. My meat costs a little more.. but overall.. Its there for me day in day out.. You honestly think that we will somehow plow through all our chickens and cattle and pork (Im Jewish so this one I dont eat.. unless its BACON! then all bets are off!) and leave us with not meat? Hmmm..

If you seriously think that anyone is suggesting that the issue here is extinction of farm animals, then truly, all bets are off. And you only insult yourself by admitting that you are Jewish, eat bacon, and don't know how to spell Israel.

...maybe, just maybe, you should focus on some factual information...

Like you did?

Educate us. Dont preach. Dont belittle and dont act high and mighty.

Well, I guess I got a little carried away again. But really, any belittling I did was only in the service of pointing out the errors and weaknesses of your argument. This internet thing is weird. I'd bet that this discussion would be very different if we were face to face, but we may never have met if the internet didn't exist. At any rate, I wasn't trying to insult you, really. I wish I could just put in a lot of links to factual references to back up my arguments, but in reality I'm too lazy for that. But the facts are there; we are depleting the natural resources of our planet at an alarming rate, and it troubles me that so many people think there's nothing wrong with that.

 

[sibermike7]

OK, point taken. I was exaggerating perhaps to make my point.

Bravo sambolino! Excellent post on your part. Even though I am a meat-eater, I'll have to admit you made many good points in this post. (I like the part about spelling Israel wrong! Especially since it HAS to end in "El" meaning God!)


PS. Nice fins..

 

[Papa_Bear]

If you are born of a Hebrew mother you are a Jew, You can't recruit people to be Jewish! I understand conversion, but you have to want to convert, and learn Yiddish and the history! You don't find Jews in pairs going door to door recruiting people to convert! That was my point! You can be Hebrew and not a Jew and I guess you can be a Progressive Jew and eat Bacon? My point was that I have no problem with people eating whatever thy want, but I draw the line when it is stated that their way is of higher morality or superiority! I would no more force someone to eat anything they didn't want to than Riding on the back of a whale to 3000ft!