Are resort DM's really that reckless?

[Coldwater_Canuck]

The problem with a short course and a short book are that a lot of subjects are never covered in sufficient detail. This is a perfect example.

When diving while congested, you may not be able to equalize on the way down. But even worse, would be if you could equalize on the way down you may not be able to equalize on the way up (reverse block), and end up doing horrible, amazingly painful damage to your sinuses and/or ears. If your lungs are full of goo and aren't efficiently exchanging gas, there's no telling what sort of interesting damage you could cause.

Because the classes are short and the cert agencies don't want to go into too much gory detail in OW class, "Don't dive while sick" is a good rule, just as is the depth limit for OW divers.

Terry

A bit off topic I guess, but isn't the risk basically if you need to take a decongestant to equalize and it wears off? That's the impression I got after reading a few different places, that if you were able to equalize on the way down, unless on some sort of medicine, the way up should be no issue.

I know when I was flying with a cold (worse than anything I've dove with) ascending to the first 10,000 feet or so (which is around the point they start pressurizing the aircraft) my ears were fine. However, descending from this point, my ears started killing me and my hearing was screwed up for days, it was horrible. But yet nothing on the way up.

 

[String]

100% of the blame for people pushing the limit lies with the diver concerned NOT the divemaster who is simply employed as a dive.

The diver is responsible for their own safety and knowing their own limits - nobody else.

 

[divezonescuba]

Most dive boat operations get very upset when you cancel a booked dive. The closer to the dive the more upset they get. The cancellation of two seats on a six pack or even a larger boat represents a significant economic issue.

You have to be willing to sacrifice the cost of the dives if you think you will be in danger.

We once cancelled one 5 minutes before the departure because some things the divemaster said to us. Luckily, we were able to get credit back for that set of dives.

In another case, we didn't book because they told us that they were going down to 100 ft and we had to go down that deep with them. They refused to allow us to hover above at 80 ft.

However, sometimes you cannot find these things out before hand even if you ask the right questions.

On my very first dive as part of a resort course, we did a penetration on the Antilla in Aruba. I was last in the group. As we went through, I started to become positively bouyant. No amount of swimming helped me go through the last hatch. If I hadn't recalled the part of the class on releasing some air from my BC, they would have had to come find me. Nothing in the resort course said anything about becoming positively bouyant toward the end of the dive and nobody said anything about entering a wreck. However, I wouldn't have known that it was dangerous anyway. For good reason, the dive ops down there don't do that anymore.

So nowadays, I ask as many questions before hand that I can and I am always prepared to abort the dive regardless of the embarrasment or economic consequences. My wife always says "What's your life worth to you"

 

[krbailey]

100% of the blame for people pushing the limit lies with the diver concerned NOT the divemaster who is simply employed as a dive.

The diver is responsible for their own safety and knowing their own limits - nobody else.

The rule they are both breaking is 'if it seems to good to be true, it probably is'

If someone says you're going to get a 1000% return on your investment, then you probably shouldn't give them your money

If someone says it's okay for you to dive to 40m when you're only certified for 18m, then you probably shouldn't go on the dive

Both scenarios can have good outcomes, but you can also get burnt/bent

So in the end, you're the one responsible for the risk assessment

I'm sure we all share your sentiment - DMs should be someone a diver (especially a new-ish diver) can look to for good advice and a safe dive

The unfortunate truth is, while there are many great DMs around, there are also plenty that aren't, for various reasons

So, don't choose them by certification, but by reputation

'Many certified, few qualified' is a good maxim - sad but true

And at the end of the day ("it gets dark", as my instructor likes to say) - you're responsible for choosing the person that you decide to entrust your safety to, right or wrong

Wow. OW instructors certainly must not be teaching the part about personal responsibility well enough. I know it was covered well in my class and, fortunately, I was pretty surprised the first time a DM said he was going to lead me on a dive (around #100 for me). It never occurred to me, before or since then, to let someone else tell me what is safe for me, once I was certified.

Having said that, a DM should know better and both people should be caned for ignoring safety.

Seems to be a Southern Hemisphere thing!

 

[don Francisco]

In a word - No. Most resort DM's are pretty safety conscious and have to be, since injuries aren't good for business.

In Cozumel, it isn't unusual to see open water divers taken to 80-90 feet, which is technically beyond their level of training, but most operators won't do that until they've seen how you perform on earlier dives. Nor is going to 80' necessarily a problem. Think about it - is a diver trained to be able to plan and execute an unsupervised dive to 60 feet really in greater danger on a supervised dive at 80 feet?

Running a dive op isn't always easy, and the quality operators often get flak when trying to impose limits on divers who feel that they're unjustified. Stand at the registration area and you're likely to hear conversations that go something like this.

"Sorry, based on your experience, I can't take you to Punta Sur"
"Whatdya mean? Who are you to tell me I'm not qualiifed? I'll have you know.....!!!"

or

"I see you haven't dived in three years, I think you shoiuld consider a checkout dive and possibly a refresher course"
"What? %#$@&$@!!!! You guys ......!!!!!"

Many operators have found subtle ways to mintain their safety standards and avoid the confrontation to some degree. I've dived with a number of different operators, and in almost every case they've taken my certification and experience with a grain of salt and planned the first day's dives at safer, shallower, more confined sites. They try to stay below my radar in this strategy, and I in turn respect their policy and go with the flow.

Now, are there sloppier operations out there? Of course.

Ultimately, you need to manage for your own safety. It's up to you to decide who you'll dive with, and what you'll do on a dive. Ask questions about the dive profiles when you sign up. Ask about the particulars of the dive at the briefing such as, are there swim throughs? Can I go around them? During the dive make your own decision about what you will or won't do, watch your own air, depth and NDL.

Being able to care for yourself is what certification is all about in the first place.

 

[wreckchick]

Well, I am the 'resort divemaster' and one thing that everyone needs to keep in mind is that there is a difference between my role in training and with certified divers. As an instructor or as a certified assistant helping another instructor I am responsible for the divers under my control. With certified divers my basic responsibilities are to give site briefing, a suggested dive briefing (the dive I'm planning to do) and remember where the boat is. That's it. I'm not here to nanny people into doing only dives above 60' unless they have an AOW card. I'm not going to restrict a diver from going TO 60' if they've never been below 25' for 20 minutes a few times in a quarry last year.

Once you become certified, it becomes your responsibility to communicate to the shop or divemaster or both your level or training, your prior experience and your comfort level and let them help you get the best experience you can. I can't do anything about it if I have 10 divers on the boat headed to a wreck in 90' only to have someone approach me to tell me they were certified in the Florida Keys 3 years ago and haven't dove since (yes, that really happened). What am I to do then? I can't turn the boat around, I have divers looking to do that dive. I can suggest that the diver not do the dive, but do I now owe a refund? Can I tether that diver to me and do the dive. Yeah, I probably can but I don't really want to.

Although the idea of structuring the dive to the least experienced and least comfortable is a fine idea in concept, it's just not always that easy to do in real life. At some point I'm going to tick off the experienced diver who has to do the shallow dive with the n00b or the new diver is going to get flustered because the dive is more advanced than he/she was expecting.

Rachel

 

[Coldwater_Canuck]

100% of the blame for people pushing the limit lies with the diver concerned NOT the divemaster who is simply employed as a dive.

The diver is responsible for their own safety and knowing their own limits - nobody else.

So then what is the purpose of having dive masters? Based on what you're saying, shouldn't we just drop the dive master certification? On a boat, if they aren't responsible for safety at all, there really is no point. For guiding groups, if the leader has no responsibility we are just as well off giving the job to someone with their OW certification who knows the area.

Sorry, I don't mean to sound too sarcastic here, it's just I don't really understand what you're saying. If Dievemaster's don't have any responsibility for their divers (apparantly 0% if the divers take 100%), then what on earth is the point of PADI and other agencies having a Divemaster course and rating?

Now I'm certainly not one to say "blame the divemaster for everything". If people are idiots while under his supervision, there may not be a whole lot he can do. But we're talking about people leading and encouraging unqualified divers into dangerous situation.

 

[wreckchick]

So then what is the purpose of having dive masters? Based on what you're saying, shouldn't we just drop the dive master certification? On a boat, if they aren't responsible for safety at all, there really is no point. For guiding groups, if the leader has no responsibility we are just as well off giving the job to someone with their OW certification who knows the area.

Sorry, I don't mean to sound too sarcastic here, it's just I don't really understand what you're saying. If Dievemaster's don't have any responsibility for their divers (apparantly 0% if the divers take 100%), then what on earth is the point of PADI and other agencies having a Divemaster course and rating?

Now I'm certainly not one to say "blame the divemaster for everything". If people are idiots while under his supervision, there may not be a whole lot he can do. But we're talking about people leading and encouraging unqualified divers into dangerous situation.

What we end up doing is acting as a safety net in case something does happen. We are trained to react quickly and appropriately in emergency situations. The vast majority of dives need no such intervention so you wouldn't see it.

R

 

[Coldwater_Canuck]

Well, I am the 'resort divemaster' and one thing that
Once you become certified, it becomes your responsibility to communicate to the shop or divemaster or both your level or training, your prior experience and your comfort level and let them help you get the best experience you can. I can't do anything about it if I have 10 divers on the boat headed to a wreck in 90' only to have someone approach me to tell me they were certified in the Florida Keys 3 years ago and haven't dove since (yes, that really happened). What am I to do then? I can't turn the boat around, I have divers looking to do that dive. I can suggest that the diver not do the dive, but do I now owe a refund? Can I tether that diver to me and do the dive. Yeah, I probably can but I don't really want to.

Although the idea of structuring the dive to the least experienced and least comfortable is a fine idea in concept, it's just not always that easy to do in real life. At some point I'm going to tick off the experienced diver who has to do the shallow dive with the n00b or the new diver is going to get flustered because the dive is more advanced than he/she was expecting.

Rachel

That 3 years thing is a bit of an extreme example because obviously that person should have gotten at least a refresher course first. But say it was just a normal OW diver: only qualified to 60 feet: the question I have is why was he on a boat with a bunch of people wanting to do an advanced dive in the first place? If the dive was advertised as an advanced trip: then its his fault. If it was advertised as a beginners trip, then I don't think everyone else should have been expecting an advanced dive. I don't know the economies of a resort, but it seems the decision you were stuck with is one you never should have had to make.

 

[Coldwater_Canuck]

What we end up doing is acting as a safety net in case something does happen. We are trained to react quickly and appropriately in emergency situations. The vast majority of dives need no such intervention so you wouldn't see it.

R

which is why I find it concerning when some (and I'm sure it is a minority and I'm sure you're not included in that group) seem to be the cause of the emergencies.