Are resort DM's really that reckless?

[Coldwater_Canuck]

It's easy to say "No" after a few hundred dives. I flipped off a DM and then surfaced after he ran me and my new-diver buddy well below the planned depth and turn pressure. With hundreds of dives, it's easy now. However when I was in Coz with 7 dives, I'd probably have followed him until the last molecule of air was drained from my tank.

When you've just spent the last 8 weeks (or two days or whatever) listening to some guy who told you to do all sorts of stuff that you thought you could never do, it's much more difficult to say "no" when another supposed professional tells you to do something else that you think is risky.

Terry

That's what I'm saying. As you get more experienced you probably don't care so much what a divemaster says (which could be both good and bad depending on the situation).

By no means do I condone a DM being irresponsible while leading a dive, but people tend to not assume responsibility for their actions and look for someone else to blame.

Depth limits are suggestions, there's no law that prevents a recently minted diver to go beyond 60' you are the only person who really knows if you are able to make such dive.

All I'm saying is, check your bags while on vacation, not your brain!

Wiz

Yes, but in these situations I think the blame is well placed. And in no way am I saying these people don't have some responsibility, but I think the vast majority rests with the dive master: he created the uncomfortable situation which is especially bad considering he's supposed to be the leader.

The dive limits are suggestions to the divers, but I'm pretty sure to a divemaster they are rules. If you are hired as a PADI divemaster for example, is it not your job to ensure that if you have OW trained divers, they don't go beyond their limits while under your supervision? Maybe I'm wrong and the job of a divemaster is to "take divers to whatever limits you feel like", but I'm guessing that isn't in the course book anywhere.

 

[Sas]

Maybe this is a cultural difference, but here almost any nicer restaurant takes your card to the register (I have no idea where they are even located in most places) and I have literally never seen anyone ask to come with the server to watch them pay. There's the odd restaurant where you pay the front, but that is the exception here.

Yes I suspect it is a cultural difference. Generally here you get given a bill and then you go up to the register and pay.

True, but also remember this isn't "peer pressure". We're not talking about idiot dive buddies. The divemaster is not your "peer". I'd equate it more to your parent convincing you to smoke or binge drink - they aren't your peer, they are supposed to be above you.

Yes, I know what that is like too. Even so, I still knew enough to know that binge drinking and smoking was not healthy. I was trained in OW to follow certain rules, one of them being my own judgement with regards to my limits, so even if a DM tells me otherwise, I would not do something outside my comfort zone. And if I did decide to do something stupid at their advice, I would take responsibility for the consequences.

 

[Tortuga68]

The issue I have with this is in my opinion it's too close to the "blame the victim" type of arguments. It kind of reminds me of blaming the victims of a pyramid scam because "they should have known better". In hindsight, these people look like complete idiots, but they still aren't the ones trying to break the rules

The rule they are both breaking is 'if it seems to good to be true, it probably is'

If someone says you're going to get a 1000% return on your investment, then you probably shouldn't give them your money

If someone says it's okay for you to dive to 40m when you're only certified for 18m, then you probably shouldn't go on the dive

Both scenarios can have good outcomes, but you can also get burnt/bent

So in the end, you're the one responsible for the risk assessment

 

[DiverDurf]

Wow. OW instructors certainly must not be teaching the part about personal responsibility well enough. I know it was covered well in my class and, fortunately, I was pretty surprised the first time a DM said he was going to lead me on a dive (around #100 for me). It never occurred to me, before or since then, to let someone else tell me what is safe for me, once I was certified.

Having said that, a DM should know better and both people should be caned for ignoring safety.

I get what you and others are saying- I really do. I also knew that the way I made the original post was going to open up several sides of the discussion which was my intent (for the learning aspect). I absolutely LOVE diving but I take all aspects of it very seriously; I owe that to my family who wants to see me another day. I know that I would not follow a resort DM to unexpected/unplanned/untrained depths if I felt the risk was over my head, but I was getting a sick feeling last night reading all of the stories about the near mishaps related to depths and inconsiderate/poorly trained DM's. It just begged the question of why they do it to begin with, especially with new divers (and often no doubt young, immature ones) that lack the maturity to tell the DM "no."

Excellent posts by the way and I truly "thank you" all for taking the time to reply.

 

[DiverDurf]

Always remember---you're a certified diver........Bet also you have a brain to wrap that mask around.......

Short and to the point.....I like it!

 

[DivingPrincessE]

Never. I pay at the cash register *always*. Most people pay for meals this way afaik...

Maybe this is a cultural difference, but here almost any nicer restaurant takes your card to the register (I have no idea where they are even located in most places) and I have literally never seen anyone ask to come with the server to watch them pay. There's the odd restaurant where you pay the front, but that is the exception here.

I have to back up Coldwater here. NO ONE does that here (other than diners and places like that). If you followed the waiter to the register at a normal restaurant you would get some seriously odd looks.

I also agree with Coldwater that new divers should be able to trust DMs. They just spent their entire certification process listening and doing exactly what an instructor and DM says. Until they start to figure stuff out on their own, chances are they are going to listen to DMs on dive boats as well.

If you don't agree that most people will do what they are told by an authority figure, just google "Milgram Experiment"

 

[Coldwater_Canuck]

The rule they are both breaking is 'if it seems to good to be true, it probably is'

If someone says you're going to get a 1000% return on your investment, then you probably shouldn't give them your money

If someone says it's okay for you to dive to 40m when you're only certified for 18m, then you probably shouldn't go on the dive

Both scenarios can have good outcomes, but you can also get burnt/bent

So in the end, you're the one responsible for the risk assessment

True, and the diver should take some of the responsibility for sure in either case (although I guess one big difference is in the divemaster case, you don't expect he has anything to gain). However, in the scheme example, it's only the schemer who will go to jail. not those getting schemed. It may be bad decisions by the divers, but they are bad decisions that never should have had to be made in the first place if not for the divemasters pure negligence in doing their job.

My point isn't that people shouldn't take responsibility and should put all their faith in the divemaster, but that while they're decisions may not have been smart, the divemasters (or those telling them where to dive) were downright wrong, I'm not sure if I should use the word malicious or just negligent to describe their behaviour. These aren't borderline cases of going 5 feet too deep or going for 10 extra minutes underwater than the chart says: we're talking pretty gross violations. In any case, the diving agencies should yank the professional certification from anyone who while in their professional position (off duty is much more blurry) purposely encourages divers under their supervision to break major rules of the agency. If you can't trust divemasters and instructors: why have them?

As a similar example, were I (a non-instructor) to say to my friend "don't take an intro to Scuba course, I can show you everythign you need to know", I rent him gear and take him to the ocean: I should have my PADI card yanked for being an irresponsible idiot endangering the life of someone much less knowledgeable about diving than me.

 

[Coldwater_Canuck]

I have to back up Coldwater here. NO ONE does that here (other than diners and places like that). If you followed the waiter to the register at a normal restaurant you would get some seriously odd looks.

I also agree with Coldwater that new divers should be able to trust DMs. They just spent their entire certification process listening and doing exactly what an instructor and DM says. Until they start to figure stuff out on their own, chances are they are going to listen to DMs on dive boats as well.

If you don't agree that most people will do what they are told by an authority figure, just google "Milgram Experiment"

Wow I'd never heard of that before, Wikipedia has a nice summary of it:
Milgram experiment - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
I think that does get to the basic point I was trying to make, thanks.

 

[Tortuga68]

If you can't trust divemasters and instructors: why have them?

I'm sure we all share your sentiment - DMs should be someone a diver (especially a new-ish diver) can look to for good advice and a safe dive

The unfortunate truth is, while there are many great DMs around, there are also plenty that aren't, for various reasons

So, don't choose them by certification, but by reputation

'Many certified, few qualified' is a good maxim - sad but true

And at the end of the day ("it gets dark", as my instructor likes to say) - you're responsible for choosing the person that you decide to entrust your safety to, right or wrong

 

[Web Monkey]

By no means do I condone a DM being irresponsible while leading a dive, but people tend to not assume responsibility for their actions and look for someone else to blame.

Depth limits are suggestions, there's no law that prevents a recently minted diver to go beyond 60' you are the only person who really knows if you are able to make such dive.

That's exactly the point. A brand new diver has no idea if he can safely make the dive and is trusting the dive leader (who may or may not be doing a good job).

Terry