Are resort DM's really that reckless?

[austriandiveress]

These are excellent points, on both sides. For what its worth, I think its important to remember that DMs can be put in an awkward positon by having to cater to divers of many skill levels, sometimes all at once.
I have seen advanced divers (1000+ dives) giving a DM a hard time for sticking to the "rules"; they felt that neither the depth nor the duration of the dive was close to what they expected and were used to.
I've also witnessed DMs yelling at divers in their charge for breaking these rules immediatly following a dive. A complete mess, and neither the divers nor the DM were happy!
This illustrated to me all the more why it is indeed important to know and stick to your own limits, even (or especially?) as a new diver, and discuss them with the DM BEFORE the dive.

 

[krbailey]

Coldwater_Canuck

As a new diver, I agree with your posts. I pointed out the same thing regarding DM's in Coz taking OW divers in "swim-throughs" that should have been classified as overhead environments in a different thread and got the same response "You are responsible for your own safety" I think DM's have to take the lion's share of responsibility when it comes to supervising newly certified divers.

 

[DiverDurf]

That's exactly the point. A brand new diver has no idea if he can safely make the dive and is trusting the dive leader (who may or may not be doing a good job).

Terry

You just beat me to it! I am a "brand new" diver and have no clue on how to choose a qualified DM while traveling abroad. By the time I take my trip I'll hopefully have a good 20-50 dives under my belt and will be somewhat self reliable in choosing my dive destinations/charters. But if I were doing a trip, say next month, I wouldn't know flip yet as far as experience goes and may not recognize a good Dm versus a bad one. I know and understand that there are bad apples in every profession and every walk in life, but it just bugs me that in a sport like diving a DM would be so hazardous with other people's lives.

 

[gypsyjim]

As I read threw the posts I was thinking about DM's I been around, both at home and abroad. As beginners new divers (hopefully) have picked good instructors by their reputations, and their DM's are usually very good. As students we were taught to listen to the DM as we would the instructor. They were an extension of the instructor. They were there to watch over the students, help teach and protect the beginners from making serious errors.

The problems that I have seen have been on a few resort dives or cattle boats where the "DM's" are little more than low wage locals getting the best paying job available to them, and really acting more like tour guides than the DM's we've been exposed to during our training. Short SI's between deep dives, where the DM's were each only diving once, to avoid the problems associated with shortened SI's, failing to monitor divers, etc. I have seen some pretty bad DM's, but luckily they have always been a minority.

With experience divers learn to monitor and dive their own plan and we learn the need to watch our own backs at all times, but when you are less experienced and used to seeing the DM as an authority figure with your safety and education as their primary function it can be easy to follow as less caring or careless DM into disastater.

 

[ScubaSteve]

What always disturbs me about questions like this are the people that come on the board and say things like:

"You are responsible and only you"
or
"There is nothing wrong with an OW diver in 110 FSW"
or
"I am certain the diver evaluated the OW diver with 4 post cert dives and determined that they were good enough to penetrate the wreck."

These people are out there and always ready to argue.

I am of the personal belief that an OW Student should have depth restrictions that are shallower than those of an AOW and I am also fo the beliefe that an AOW course should require a minimum amount of experience before a student can take it. I know that these cannot be "policed" but telling people outright during certification and printing it in the legal crap that gets signed that OW training only certifies a diver to depth 'X' covers the butt of the agency.

 

[Coldwater_Canuck]

I'm sure we all share your sentiment - DMs should be someone a diver (especially a new-ish diver) can look to for good advice and a safe dive

The unfortunate truth is, while there are many great DMs around, there are also plenty that aren't, for various reasons

So, don't choose them by certification, but by reputation

'Many certified, few qualified' is a good maxim - sad but true

And at the end of the day ("it gets dark", as my instructor likes to say) - you're responsible for choosing the person that you decide to entrust your safety to, right or wrong

Don't get me wrong, I dont' advocate blind faith in them. However, at the same time if a divemaster is assigned to something it is logical you can put some level of trust in them, or as I said there's no point to them even being there. Unfortunately, new divers aren't sure what their limits are. They know the PADI/NAUI/whatever limits, but those types of books don't like grey areas so are really black and white. For example, I have diven with a cold multiple times despite the PADI book saying "never dive with a cold". In reality, it probably could have said "be aware that if you dive with a cold you may not be able to equalize and might have to call the dive off: judge how badly you are congested and make a judgement call" - of course in reality it's much easier to just say "don't dive with a cold". So if your divemaster tells you that "60 feet is arbitrary, 90 feet is no different, it's no big deal, no one cares about those stupid PADI ratings" a new diver may be inclined to believe them - it's a difficult situation they shouldn't be put in in the first place.

 

[Coldwater_Canuck]

These are excellent points, on both sides. For what its worth, I think its important to remember that DMs can be put in an awkward positon by having to cater to divers of many skill levels, sometimes all at once.
I have seen advanced divers (1000+ dives) giving a DM a hard time for sticking to the "rules"; they felt that neither the depth nor the duration of the dive was close to what they expected and were used to.
I've also witnessed DMs yelling at divers in their charge for breaking these rules immediatly following a dive. A complete mess, and neither the divers nor the DM were happy!
This illustrated to me all the more why it is indeed important to know and stick to your own limits, even (or especially?) as a new diver, and discuss them with the DM BEFORE the dive.

Well ya that's a different scenerio, and not what it sounds like is going on at these resorts. Ultimately I feel sorry for the divemasters in the situation you describe, but they need to stand strong.

Coldwater_Canuck

As a new diver, I agree with your posts. I pointed out the same thing regarding DM's in Coz taking OW divers in "swim-throughs" that should have been classified as overhead environments in a different thread and got the same response "You are responsible for your own safety" I think DM's have to take the lion's share of responsibility when it comes to supervising newly certified divers.

I think it's more than just new divers who should be angry about this though. Scuba is a sport with many inherent risks, yet it has a pretty solid safety record because safety is stressed at all levels, from the newest diver to the oldest veteran. I kind of think of it like the airline industry: sure there are a ton of inherent risks: yet flying is very safe because safety is one of the most important things for commercial airliners and they always have backup plans.

When these things happen, it's obviously tragic for those involved, but it also hurts the sport as a whole. We all have a responsibility for safety, and when experienced divers purposely put unexperienced divers at an unreasonable risk: I have issues with it. It ruins the reputation of the vast majority of divemasters who are very careful and very throughough in following the rules and ensuring safety (and a few bad apples truly can spoil the bunch: we all saw it with the Catholic Priests a few years ago). I don't know if it is the divemasters, the resorts, or who is exactly making these choices, but this sounds like it is way too common of a scenario.

 

[Coldwater_Canuck]

The problems that I have seen have been on a few resort dives or cattle boats where the "DM's" are little more than low wage locals getting the best paying job available to them, and really acting more like tour guides than the DM's we've been exposed to during our training. Short SI's between deep dives, where the DM's were each only diving once, to avoid the problems associated with shortened SI's, failing to monitor divers, etc. I have seen some pretty bad DM's, but luckily they have always been a minority.

That may explain it, because as I said all the instructors and divemasters I've met have been absolute professionals.

With experience divers learn to monitor and dive their own plan and we learn the need to watch our own backs at all times, but when you are less experienced and used to seeing the DM as an authority figure with your safety and education as their primary function it can be easy to follow as less caring or careless DM into disastater.

well said.

 

[Web Monkey]

For example, I have diven with a cold multiple times despite the PADI book saying "never dive with a cold". In reality, it probably could have said "be aware that if you dive with a cold you may not be able to equalize and might have to call the dive off: judge how badly you are congested and make a judgement call" - of course in reality it's much easier to just say "don't dive with a cold".

The problem with a short course and a short book are that a lot of subjects are never covered in sufficient detail. This is a perfect example.

When diving while congested, you may not be able to equalize on the way down. But even worse, would be if you could equalize on the way down you may not be able to equalize on the way up (reverse block), and end up doing horrible, amazingly painful damage to your sinuses and/or ears. If your lungs are full of goo and aren't efficiently exchanging gas, there's no telling what sort of interesting damage you could cause.

Because the classes are short and the cert agencies don't want to go into too much gory detail in OW class, "Don't dive while sick" is a good rule, just as is the depth limit for OW divers.

Terry

 

[Tortuga68]

At the risk of making a broad generalisation, some agencies, let's say oh I don't know, PADI for example, are primarily interested in two things:

1. Limiting their liability

2. Making money

Some resorts, and their employees (eg DMs) are the same - never mind the fact that many DMs float from one place to another, some with limited skills/knowledge of both diving and the local environment

You'll read a hundred threads here telling you that the most important thing is the person guiding/teaching you. It's true.

It's like scubaboard.com - lots of people will give you advice, you're the one who has to decide if you're comfortable following it, and live with the consequences