Are resort DM's really that reckless?

[ScubaSteve]

Well, I am the 'resort divemaster' and one thing that everyone needs to keep in mind is that there is a difference between my role in training and with certified divers. As an instructor or as a certified assistant helping another instructor I am responsible for the divers under my control. With certified divers my basic responsibilities are to give site briefing, a suggested dive briefing (the dive I'm planning to do) and remember where the boat is. That's it. I'm not here to nanny people into doing only dives above 60' unless they have an AOW card. I'm not going to restrict a diver from going TO 60' if they've never been below 25' for 20 minutes a few times in a quarry last year.

Once you become certified, it becomes your responsibility to communicate to the shop or divemaster or both your level or training, your prior experience and your comfort level and let them help you get the best experience you can. I can't do anything about it if I have 10 divers on the boat headed to a wreck in 90' only to have someone approach me to tell me they were certified in the Florida Keys 3 years ago and haven't dove since (yes, that really happened). What am I to do then? I can't turn the boat around, I have divers looking to do that dive. I can suggest that the diver not do the dive, but do I now owe a refund? Can I tether that diver to me and do the dive. Yeah, I probably can but I don't really want to.

Although the idea of structuring the dive to the least experienced and least comfortable is a fine idea in concept, it's just not always that easy to do in real life. At some point I'm going to tick off the experienced diver who has to do the shallow dive with the n00b or the new diver is going to get flustered because the dive is more advanced than he/she was expecting.

Rachel

I always like reading your posts Rachel. I do have a comment to make here though. Catering your dives to the NOOB is impossible if they do not inform you ahead of time. This we know. But really, is there that many divers out there that will complain about going to 65' as opposed to 100'? Given the same site, I expect any that will compain is just a Maverick that is going to endanger everybody anyways. They just need to go deeper to say they went deeper. They will inevitably push beyond their training no matter what it is. This is not who I want to be in the water with. All things being equal, I would rather be on a dive to 65' for 1 hour rather than a 110' dive for 40 minutes (I have just picked numbers for examples).

If the site is not the same (i.e. 65' reef versus 110' wreck), then why not ask the certification level AND experience level AND last dive date etc. prior to signing them up and only accept those that fit the predetermined criteria? Then, if a diver lies and says they have 300 dives logged latest last week, then your butt is covered. Then, the diver knows ahead of time the requirements and if they do not fit, they do not dive. Shops with 2 boats can do 1 to each site. I see many ways around this problem that places choose to ignore. I know it is never as easy as it seems, but it it is also rarely as difficult as many make it out to be.

Just my 2 cents. Want change?

 

[wreckchick]

I always like reading your posts Rachel. I do have a comment to make here though. Catering your dives to the NOOB is impossible if they do not inform you ahead of time. This we know. But really, is there that many divers out there that will complain about going to 65' as opposed to 100'? Given the same site, I expect any that will compain is just a Maverick that is going to endanger everybody anyways. They just need to go deeper to say they went deeper. They will inevitably push beyond their training no matter what it is. This is not who I want to be in the water with. All things being equal, I would rather be on a dive to 65' for 1 hour rather than a 110' dive for 40 minutes (I have just picked numbers for examples).

If the site is not the same (i.e. 65' reef versus 110' wreck), then why not ask the certification level AND experience level AND last dive date etc. prior to signing them up and only accept those that fit the predetermined criteria? Then, if a diver lies and says they have 300 dives logged latest last week, then your butt is covered. Then, the diver knows ahead of time the requirements and if they do not fit, they do not dive. Shops with 2 boats can do 1 to each site. I see many ways around this problem that places choose to ignore. I know it is never as easy as it seems, but it it is also rarely as difficult as many make it out to be.

Just my 2 cents. Want change?

More often than not it's a site selection issue more than staying shallower or going deeper on the same site. We do ask and the answers we get may help us make the decision to go to a certain site but as it turns out the divers aren't up for it and now we're in the water and site is the wrong one.

We do split our trips with certified divers only on the morning trips and students, rusty divers, new divers, juniors or anyone else that requires shallower/easier dives on the afternoon boats.

R

 

[String]

Seems to be a Southern Hemisphere thing!

Ive never been to the southern hemisphere in my life !

I really cant see the issue here. Certification depth is a recommendation not a legal rule. If no course is being taught then there are no agency standards to breach.
So the responsibility is 100% down to the individual diver involved.

Its also so much easier here where boats have no divemasters, no guides, no qualifications are checked and people just go diving and take responsibility for it.

 

[String]

So then what is the purpose of having dive masters?

None what so ever. In this case they're simply a guided. Any qualified diver can be a guide. If he wasn't booked to nanny an individual or teach a course then there is no need to have one - anyone that knows the site will do.

Based on what you're saying, shouldn't we just drop the dive master certification?

No - they're handy for helping instructors on courses or as teaching programmes. The above was neither.

On a boat, if they aren't responsible for safety at all, there really is no point.

Correct. The only person (outside instruction) responsible for their own safety is the diver themselves.

For guiding groups, if the leader has no responsibility we are just as well off giving the job to someone with their OW certification who knows the area.

Correct, thats exactly what happens in some areas and is fine. They are a guide. IF you insist on being guided they simply point out the best bits of the site. That doesnt need divemaster training.

If Dievemaster's don't have any responsibility for their divers (apparantly 0% if the divers take 100%),

If they aren't undertaking an agency approved programme (guiding isnt) then they do have no responsibility. Nor should they.

then what on earth is the point of PADI and other agencies having a Divemaster course and rating?

See above - they help teach courses of agency approved programmes.

If you are a qualified diver and feel you need nannying then employ a divemaster as a personal babysitter. Otherwise they're just there to show you the site.

 

[TSandM]

It's easy to point fingers in one direction or another and say, "HE's the one at fault!" But really, the problem is more complex than that.

I did my 10th dive of my life to 130 feet in Molokini crater, following an instructor. I had been to 100 feet during my AOW class, so it wasn't anything new, going deep following someone who said it was okay. In reality, I shouldn't have done the deep dive of my AOW OR the dive in Molokini, because I knew so little and my buoyancy control in the shallows wasn't very good.

Why did it happen?

1. I didn't know enough to say no. After all, I'd done my deep dive, right?

2. I trusted the leader. Most people do, especially if that leader has some kind of credentials.

3. The leader almost certainly wanted to give us "bang for our buck", as people don't return if they're unhappy with the quality of the service they get for their money.

4. The leader almost certainly felt he was capable of keeping us out of trouble, or getting us out of it. And he may have been. We didn't get into any, so I don't know.

In my case, the leader was only responsible for two of us, so the last parameter, which is trying to create a dive that will satisfy a wildly varying group of customers, wasn't really at issue, but that's another consideration for guides on a lot of dives.

If I were going to give advice to a new diver, it would be to keep the dives relatively shallow and simple for a while. If traveling to a place like Cozumel, talk to the dive ops BEFORE you go, and see if there is ANYBODY who will do two dives on the shallow reefs, instead of one deep one and one shallow one. (I don't even know if this is possible there.) When you arrive, remind the dive op that that's what you requested, and make sure they're willing and able to give you what you want. In the end, it may be better to choose destinations which are known for that type of dive, rather than going to a place like Coz, where the "big ticket" dives are the deep ones on the dramatic reef structure, and the swim-throughs.

The bottom line is that, as certified divers, we are ALWAYS responsible for making sure the dives we do fall within our sphere of competence, but a lot of the time, people don't really even know what that sphere of competence IS.

 

[Coldwater_Canuck]

If you are a qualified diver and feel you need nannying then employ a divemaster as a personal babysitter. Otherwise they're just there to show you the site.

I don't feel the need for babysitting. What I'm talking about isn't blaming divemaster's for when their divers make stupid mistakes. The original post was talking about divemasters who seem to be leading divers who are horribly underqualified into dagnerous situations. If you're the divemaster on a boat and the divers decide to go way deeper than they should: not much you can do, I don't blame them there in the least. It's encouraging and leading people to do something unsafe I have an issue with (and I'd have an issue with this from any diver; being a divemaster just makes it seem that much worse, although as someone said, these may not be "divemasters" in the way we're using the word)

 

[ScubaSteve]

More often than not it's a site selection issue more than staying shallower or going deeper on the same site. We do ask and the answers we get may help us make the decision to go to a certain site but as it turns out the divers aren't up for it and now we're in the water and site is the wrong one.

We do split our trips with certified divers only on the morning trips and students, rusty divers, new divers, juniors or anyone else that requires shallower/easier dives on the afternoon boats.

R

Does this mean you are on the surface or diving? If on the surface....then they do not dive. Simple. They are not comfortable and therefore do not dive. They knew the conditions ahead of time....you did your job. If I freak out on the surface, the last thing I need is somebody telling me I should do the dive anyways. If it is beneath the surface when they decide they are not up to it.....then I would say that it is safest to treat it as an emergency (within reason) and head back to the boat. I am sure all sorts of people are going to flame me for that comment but I do not see keeping a "concerned" diver (I am interpreting your comment to say someone who could be close to panic because they are obviously not comfortable) in the water would be both dangerous and negligent IMHO. Then, if it is a two tank trip and this was the first.....that diver either stays on the boat or ensures you (or the captain) that they are OK for the next dive. I, as one of the other paying divers might not be happy with the situation about ending the first dive early, but that is life.

I would hope that any DM/Captain/Resort/DiveShop would rather have one diver upset because they were held back for safety reasons than a death or accident that could have been avoided. And I personally do not see this is that big a stretch if the diver is already scared of the dive because the smallest thing would likely send them right over the edge into full blown panic.

 

[String]

The original post was talking about divemasters who seem to be leading divers who are horribly underqualified into dagnerous situations.

Thats the divers responsibility. Unless the divemaster chained them to him and dragged them deeper they had a choice. They're *qualified* divers. Part of that qualification is giving them the knowledge they need to decide whether to do a dive or not and what isnt within their limits.

If you booked a tour guide for some trip and the guide decided to walk off a 300ft cliff would you follow them?

If you're the divemaster on a boat and the divers decide to go way deeper than they should: not much you can do, I don't blame them there in the least.

If its against company policy you stop them from diving with you again. Ive done that many times to customers that ignored the safety brief.

It's encouraging and leading people to do something unsafe I have an issue with (and I'd have an issue with this from any diver; being a divemaster just makes it seem that much worse, although as someone said, these may not be "divemasters" in the way we're using the word)

Its personal responsibility and choice. A divemasters reason for existence is to help teach recognised agency courses. Nowhere is anything said about guiding. I see no reason why they should be expected to do any of that unless they're being paid for babysitting. If they ARE being paid to babysit then fair enough they have a mentoring role and responsibility. If they're just there to show someone the site then really, it isnt their problem.

 

[Redshift]

Well, I am the 'resort divemaster' and one thing that everyone needs to keep in mind is that there is a difference between my role in training and with certified divers. As an instructor or as a certified assistant helping another instructor I am responsible for the divers under my control. With certified divers my basic responsibilities are to give site briefing, a suggested dive briefing (the dive I'm planning to do) and remember where the boat is. That's it. I'm not here to nanny people into doing only dives above 60' unless they have an AOW card. I'm not going to restrict a diver from going TO 60' if they've never been below 25' for 20 minutes a few times in a quarry last year.

..."the dive you are planning to do"... So, if you're planning to go inside a wreck at 120' but in your boat you only have OW divers you'll do your dive and they can go by themselves to where ever they want?
I agree it's not your job to check if everyone in a group is diving within their limits, so if you were going along a wall and a diver went deeper then what he should, it's his fault. But if you plan a dive where some divers will be forced to break their limits than it's your fault.

Once you become certified, it becomes your responsibility to communicate to the shop or divemaster or both your level or training, your prior experience and your comfort level and let them help you get the best experience you can. I can't do anything about it if I have 10 divers on the boat headed to a wreck in 90' only to have someone approach me to tell me they were certified in the Florida Keys 3 years ago and haven't dove since (yes, that really happened). What am I to do then? I can't turn the boat around, I have divers looking to do that dive. I can suggest that the diver not do the dive, but do I now owe a refund? Can I tether that diver to me and do the dive. Yeah, I probably can but I don't really want to.

Although the idea of structuring the dive to the least experienced and least comfortable is a fine idea in concept, it's just not always that easy to do in real life. At some point I'm going to tick off the experienced diver who has to do the shallow dive with the n00b or the new diver is going to get flustered because the dive is more advanced than he/she was expecting.

Rachel

It is also your responsibility to know the divers you are taking. How can you plan a dive if you don't know that? How can you know which divers you should be paying more attention to? How can you anticipate problems?
In that case you mentioned, did the diver know where they were going beforehand? (I've seen in many occasions the decision being made on board already) I don't know how that "resort" where you are works and if you only have to do with the people on board and there is someone else making the reservations, etc... But in that case someone should have known that that diver was not qualified to go on that dive.

What we end up doing is acting as a safety net in case something does happen. We are trained to react quickly and appropriately in emergency situations. The vast majority of dives need no such intervention so you wouldn't see it.

R

Before acting as a safety net you should work in minimizing the chances for incidents and in anticipating them before they happen. And you were also trained to do that.

 

[Web Monkey]

I can't do anything about it if I have 10 divers on the boat headed to a wreck in 90' only to have someone approach me to tell me they were certified in the Florida Keys 3 years ago and haven't dove since (yes, that really happened). What am I to do then?

You should let him go play under the boat and then go back and ream out the person at the desk that signed up the haven't-been-in-the-water-in-3-years diver for the 90' wreck dive.

Terry