Are resort DM's really that reckless?

[Redshift]

I'm not saying he's incapable of doing it, but from 100 feet, a solo ascent is far from the ideal situation. What if you have an emergency situation where you need your buddies octo and: well your budies with the rest of your group. When you come up on a boat dive, I'd prefer to be with others to attract the attention of the boat (and hopefully come up where the boat is expecting you).

That's the thing. As a new diver you are told not to dive deeper than x, not to dive alone, not to go inside caves or wrecks and then when you are put in a position that you'll have to do one of those how do you decide? You don't have enough experience and you'll not be comfortable in any of the situations. Abort by yourself and break a rule? Go deeper and break a rule? etc... And for a new diver it's more comfortable to stay accompanied by the group. They should never be put in a position where they have to make such a decision and that involves doing something they have been told not to do, especially when they don't have the experience to evaluate the risks of each option.

 

[wreckchick]

..."the dive you are planning to do"... So, if you're planning to go inside a wreck at 120' but in your boat you only have OW divers you'll do your dive and they can go by themselves to where ever they want?
I agree it's not your job to check if everyone in a group is diving within their limits, so if you were going along a wall and a diver went deeper then what he should, it's his fault. But if you plan a dive where some divers will be forced to break their limits than it's your fault.

Wow, hi, how ya doin'? I don't think we've met. I'm, Rachel, and you are?

So, it's not my job to check if everyone is diving within limits, but I'm not to plan a dive where they will be forced to break them?

It is also your responsibility to know the divers you are taking. How can you plan a dive if you don't know that? How can you know which divers you should be paying more attention to? How can you anticipate problems?
In that case you mentioned, did the diver know where they were going beforehand? (I've seen in many occasions the decision being made on board already) I don't know how that "resort" where you are works and if you only have to do with the people on board and there is someone else making the reservations, etc... But in that case someone should have known that that diver was not qualified to go on that dive.

I do make an effort to get to know my divers both in booking, in the shop and on the boat. The case I presented was a rarity, but it points out that these things happen and by no fault of the divemaster, things may get missed from time to time.

FTR, I don't need to ever say a word or have someone say a word to me to tell if I need to pay more attention to one diver over another and I am in a constant state of readiness through every dive. A prime rule of professional diving is, "It's not always the problem diver that gets into trouble."

Before acting as a safety net you should work in minimizing the chances for incidents and in anticipating them before they happen. And you were also trained to do that.

Thank you, Captain Obvious.

 

[scubagoldmc]

We have been to places that required you to dive with a DM and stay with them.

We were new OW divers and were up front about that.

String, does that change the situation any in your mind?

Mike

 

[Redshift]

Wow, hi, how ya doin'? I don't think we've met. I'm, Rachel, and you are?

Hugo, nice to e-meet you.

So, it's not my job to check if everyone is diving within limits, but I'm not to plan a dive where they will be forced to break them?

If the dive can accommodate all kinds of divers, than it's up to them. But if you plan a dive that some of the divers on the boat can't do what do you want them to do? One thing is to dive on a wall that goes from the surface to 150' where divers can stay within their limits and nothing is forcing them to break them (although new divers should be kept under attention because, especially when not used to clear water, they tend to go deeper without noticing). Another thing is what some other users have described from their experience when without having been told beforehand they found themselves in a situation of either going overhead or becoming separate from the group. And that's what shouldn't happen. and it's part of dive planning and involves knowing the divers on boat. And here I'm not saying it's the DM's fault. If there is a particular dive scheduled and the person on the shop in charge of booking the divers sends them to the dive, the DM will trust everything was checked before.

I do make an effort to get to know my divers both in booking, in the shop and on the boat. The case I presented was a rarity, but it points out that these things happen and by no fault of the divemaster, things may get missed from time to time.

Then you are doing it properly. And I understand that those things happen. I wasn't talking about that case in particular and I' sorry if it seemed that way.

 

[funkcanna]

Lets face it, some people believe their instructors when they joke about knifing someone if they go for your reg - its not hard to accept that new divers WILL listen to the DM if they say go deeper.

Its a gray area for sure, but the gray area is the student / new divers ability to dismiss a professional and for me the professional should not put divers in this situation.

 

[ScubaSteve]

........It is not, nor should it be their job to ensure that all standards from all agencies are met regarding depth limit recommendations for each certification level............But the DM leading the dive is just showing you the site, pointing out interesting things, and making sure no one gets lost.

So you would have no problem with a boat full of OW divers hovering at 60' where they are comfortable and the DM at 170' doing a technical dive "showing them the site"? I know this is a stretch but I think it is ridiculous to absolve every ounce of responsibility from the dive master (the one that is getting paid and I care not how much or little) who by definition is a professional (because they are getting paid).

How is the dive master doing this when they are leading the group through an undisclosed (during the briefing) swim though that a diver is not certified for (overhead environment) and thus does not go through. Say the swim through takes a turn that the outside diver is not aware of and all of the sudden they are separated and assuming they will meet at the end. Should the DM have all of the responsility? Absolutely not. But to absolve all responsibility from the DM is just ludicrous IMHO

 

[krbailey]

That's the thing. As a new diver you are told not to dive deeper than x, not to dive alone, not to go inside caves or wrecks and then when you are put in a position that you'll have to do one of those how do you decide? You don't have enough experience and you'll not be comfortable in any of the situations. Abort by yourself and break a rule? Go deeper and break a rule? etc... And for a new diver it's more comfortable to stay accompanied by the group. They should never be put in a position where they have to make such a decision and that involves doing something they have been told not to do, especially when they don't have the experience to evaluate the risks of each option.

Redshift,

That's the exact position I was put in earlier this year. I was just starting my AOW (had only completed the Deep Dive portion) and the DM led the group through a single file swim through. Since he knew my level of experience and had personally led me in 4 dives the previous day, I assumed (wrongly) that he wouldn't place me in a situation that I was unqualified for. When we approached the swim through (mentioned in the dive brief) I was in the middle of the group. I assumed (wrongly again - can you see a pattern?) it would be a quick trip through (divers in front of me blocked my view of the exit). It turned out to be 50+ ft with a sharp turn in the middle and several depth changes in an 80% enclosed overhead - you could see daylight above, but I don't think anyone could have ascended staight up.. Had I known this before hand, I might have declined (but probably not). Diver ahead of me had poor bouyancy control as evidenced by his bouncing off the coral and using his hands to assist himself through the passage. Once in the passage, I could only go ahead with the group.

Alls well that ends well, but the experience gave me an appreciation of my personal responsibility.

Question:

If I was in the last part of the group and felt uncomfortable going ahead, should I have:

a) Done a solo ascent (in Cozumel with strong currents)

b) Go over the swim-through and try to meet up with the group at the exit

c) stay put and hope my insta-buddy DM realizes I'm not behind him and returns to the entrance

Hindsight tells me I should have let another diver know my concerns and have him communicate this to the DM when he caught up with him at the exit and stayed where I was.

 

[seaducer]

It is also your responsibility to know the divers you are taking. How can you plan a dive if you don't know that? How can you know which divers you should be paying more attention to? How can you anticipate problems?

Most resorts I have been to have a schedule of what dive sites they are doing, and list them on a board for people to sign up on. The people working there are all to happy to tell you a little about the sites before you sign up. This is especially true of wrecks or popular reef dives that have been written about in dive magazines.

The only time I have seen the dives change on board was in Cozumel, the group I had travelled with booked the entire boat, and we decided to dive a different site than the boat was planning to take us to.

In most cases I am sure if you request specific conditions you will be able to be accomodated. It may be with a large resort that has the resources to handle large eclectic groups of divers, or you may have to book a small dive op who is willing to cater to 1 or a few divers all looking to do the same thing.

If we take Belize for example, there are shallow reefs, deeper reefs, and of course the Great Blue Hole. If a new diver fresh out of the pool decides to sign up for the Blue Hole, hoping he can hang at 60 feet, what is the DM to do? The dive goes to about 130 to see the rock formations. Sheould the DM turn the boat around? Force the diver to stay on board while everyone else dives? Force all the other divers to stay at 60 feet looking at nothing for the newb?

No, the dive in the Blue Hole is to 130 feet, where the formations are. There is no law prohibiting an OW diver of any experience level from making that dive, so it is up to the individual to dive, or not to dive, not the DM. They are not breaking any laws.
In an ideal world nobody would have to face those situations. But we don't live in an ideal world, we live in a world full of wonder, surprise, variability, and all that means you have decisions to make.

And I would hate to see the formation of a Scuba Police to make law and enforce it. If you find yourself over your head, don't dive. If you choose to dive and something goes wrong, you have no one to blame but yourself.

 

[seaducer]

You should let him go play under the boat and then go back and ream out the person at the desk that signed up the haven't-been-in-the-water-in-3-years diver for the 90' wreck dive.

Terry

Except I am sure he signed his waivers, intitialed the part that said he was qualified to make the dives he was going on.
Remember, log books are not a rule but a personal choice. Regardless they can be faked. Short of giving a diver Sodium Penethal you have no idea what they are really capable of, only what they tell you. Perhaps once underway he thoght better or got nervous.

 

[Web Monkey]

Except I am sure he signed his waivers, intitialed the part that said he was qualified to make the dives he was going on.
Remember, log books are not a rule but a personal choice. Regardless they can be faked. Short of giving a diver Sodium Penethal you have no idea what they are really capable of, only what they tell you. Perhaps once underway he thoght better or got nervous.

An OW card that says "5 or more logged dives" is a clue.

Terry