Are resort DM's really that reckless?

[farsidefan1]

Reminds me of my first dive after certifying. I went to Belize with my lds - not knowing anyone except the owners - who were on the other boat. We went down and followed the DM. I was back a bit and didn't see him enter a looong swimthrough. Everyone went in one at a time. I was at the end of the line thinking oh great. They are disappearing into this cave and I have no idea where they will come out. Then I'll be alone on the bottom of the freaking ocean and I don't even know for certain where the boat is! There had been NO dive briefing. Fortunately I had a little light in my bc pocket so I just lit it up and followed the last pair of fins I could see. When we came out it was more blue and green. A quick look at my computer confirmed we were at 94 feet. I thought "great,first dive I do av overhead environment dive and go 94 feet, what do I do for an encore". I'm still not sure I wouldn't do it again given the situation I found myself in. Ah well, live and learn, assuming you live of course.

 

[Sas]

The issue I have with this is in my opinion it's too close to the "blame the victim" type of arguments. It kind of reminds me of blaming the victims of a pyramid scam because "they should have known better". In hindsight, these people look like complete idiots, but they still aren't the ones trying to break the rules.

What I mean is, you're 100% correct that a diver can always say "screw you" to the divemaster, and after the fact it's easy to say "why did he listen to that idiot?". But in reality, especially to people who have maybe never dove before (which I believe is often the case with tropical resorts), the divemaster is the (normally paid) authority figure. Yes, people have responsibilities such as to check their gauges and keep an eye on their buddy. However, when the divemaster assures you that going past your PADI/NAUI/whatever limits is perfectly safe, unexperienced divers will tend to trust them.

The other thing is, in reality it's sometimes difficult to say "no". For example, credit card fraud experts say never let your card leave your site. Yet, we all let the waiter or waitress take our card from us at the restaurant. Sure, if afterwards you find someone just bought a big screen TV on your card, someone can blame you for not following the advice, but the truth is most people are too embarrassed to do what is advised of them. If a divemaster is assuring you something is perfectly safe, it can kind of embarrassing to argue it, especially if brand new. Even worse, if you're already underwater and notice that you're starting to go below 60 feet, now you have to try and stop the whole group while underwater and possibly "ruin" the dive in their minds. It's not a good situation.

So sure technically you can blame the followers, tell them to "grow a pair" and not listen to the Divemaster, but in my opinion the Divemaster is the authority figure and needs to be the responsible one. The diver should be worrying about his or her own safety (and their budies) not worrying about the divemaster's incompetence.

Fortunately, all the divemasters and instructors I've dealt with have been very professional and cautious, so I'm not speaking from personal experience. However, if people can't trust the Divemaster to follow the rules (and not lead his followers into conditions they are untrained for), why even have them?

Yes it is difficult to say no sometimes but people NEED to take responsibility for their own actions, especially in regards to safety. If a DM told me to do something I was not comfortable with then I would ignore it. One of my first dives alone without a DM I was on a boat and was told that my run time would be 45mins. Due to my prior dives and my SI, and the depth of this dive this was too long for me so I said I can do 30 mins. Anyway, a bunch of the people on the boat (who were a lot more experienced than me) kept saying 'you'll be fine, you're planning off tables, all our computers say it is ok' and rolling their eyes at me. I said 'no I am coming up at 30mins' and put up with the people complaining. Yes I felt pressured but no, I did not want to do a dive 15mins longer than my NDL. Luckily, some lovely guy stepped in and offered to be my buddy, and surface with me at 30mins.

People who fall for (legal) pyramid schemes are at fault for their problems. With illegal ones, both parties usually share some of the blame imho. Also people who let their credit card out of their sight are partially at fault if the number is stolen for being negligent. Actually, I never let my credit card out of my sight... I am not going to risk losing money because of 'embarrassment'. Same goes with doing something I am not qualified to do when diving. Ending up bent, injured or dead is worse than a little embarrassment.

The story changes if a diver is uncertified, a minor or has been given training that does not meet standards so they don't know about the dangers of certain things, then I do not believe they are at fault. The DM has responsibility in this case to make sure the dive is run safely.

 

[Coldwater_Canuck]

Yes it is difficult to say no sometimes but people NEED to take responsibility for their own actions, especially in regards to safety. If a DM told me to do something I was not comfortable with then I would ignore it. One of my first dives alone without a DM I was on a boat and was told that my run time would be 45mins. Due to my prior dives and my SI, and the depth of this dive this was too long for me so I said I can do 30 mins. Anyway, a bunch of the people on the boat (who were a lot more experienced than me) kept saying 'you'll be fine, you're planning off tables, all our computers say it is ok' and rolling their eyes at me. I said 'no I am coming up at 30mins' and put up with the people complaining. Yes I felt pressured but no, I did not want to do a dive 15mins longer than my NDL. Luckily, some lovely guy stepped in and offered to be my buddy, and surface with me at 30mins.

People who fall for (legal) pyramid schemes are at fault for their problems. With illegal ones, both parties usually share some of the blame imho. Also people who let their credit card out of their sight are partially at fault if the number is stolen for being negligent. Actually, I never let my credit card out of my sight... I am not going to risk losing money because of 'embarrassment'. Same goes with doing something I am not qualified to do when diving. Ending up bent, injured or dead is worse than a little embarrassment.

The story changes if a diver is uncertified, a minor or has been given training that does not meet standards so they don't know about the dangers of certain things, then I do not believe they are at fault. The DM has responsibility in this case to make sure the dive is run safely.

Okay you seem to be very good with following your rules. Personally, I'd find it a bit harder to argue with them. I wouldn't do something completely idiotic of course, but I also do put some level of trust in the divemaster. For example, if I were on a boat and the DM says we're going down to 75 feet (even though I'm only qualified for 60) I probably wouldn't argue if I pointed out I wasn't Advanced qualfieid and he said it was fine. However, were we going past 100 feet, then I'd probably outright refuse. And like the poster above you said, it can be tough in that situation.

But do you honestly never let a waiter or waitress take your credit card at a restaurant? What do you do, follow them back to the cash register?

And in no way am I saying "put all your trust in the divemaster", but I am saying that while it probably wasn't a smart move on the part of the diver, when a divemaster knowingly or negligently took them beyond their qualifications, I blame them much more.

 

[Web Monkey]

Yes it is difficult to say no sometimes but people NEED to take responsibility for their own actions, especially in regards to safety. If a DM told me to do something I was not comfortable with then I would ignore it. One of

It's easy to say "No" after a few hundred dives. I flipped off a DM and then surfaced after he ran me and my new-diver buddy well below the planned depth and turn pressure. With hundreds of dives, it's easy now. However when I was in Coz with 7 dives, I'd probably have followed him until the last molecule of air was drained from my tank.

When you've just spent the last 8 weeks (or two days or whatever) listening to some guy who told you to do all sorts of stuff that you thought you could never do, it's much more difficult to say "no" when another supposed professional tells you to do something else that you think is risky.

Terry

 

[diver 85]

Always remember---you're a certified diver........Bet also you have a brain to wrap that mask around.......

 

[LowVizWiz]

The issue I have with this is in my opinion it's too close to the "blame the victim" type of arguments. It kind of reminds me of blaming the victims of a pyramid scam because "they should have known better". In hindsight, these people look like complete idiots, but they still aren't the ones trying to break the rules.

By no means do I condone a DM being irresponsible while leading a dive, but people tend to not assume responsibility for their actions and look for someone else to blame.

Depth limits are suggestions, there's no law that prevents a recently minted diver to go beyond 60' you are the only person who really knows if you are able to make such dive.

All I'm saying is, check your bags while on vacation, not your brain!

Wiz

 

[I Dive]

I flipped off a DM and then surfaced after he ran me and my new-diver buddy well below the planned depth and turn pressure. Terry

I would pay money to see someone do that! That is awesome! I think that needs to become a standard signal taught in the OW class! I haven't felt the need to do that yet, but I guarantee if the need ever arises, the finger will become extended...

 

[Sas]

But do you honestly never let a waiter or waitress take your credit card at a restaurant? What do you do, follow them back to the cash register?

Never. I pay at the cash register *always*. Most people pay for meals this way afaik...

It's easy to say "No" after a few hundred dives. I flipped off a DM and then surfaced after he ran me and my new-diver buddy well below the planned depth and turn pressure. With hundreds of dives, it's easy now. However when I was in Coz with 7 dives, I'd probably have followed him until the last molecule of air was drained from my tank.

Of course it isn't easy. Lots of things are hard to say no to in life but that doesn't mean people should abdicate responsibility for their own actions because it is 'too hard'. I've said yes to many things in life I shouldn't have due to peer pressure when I was younger (smoking, too many drugs, binge drinking, arrogant men and so on). The peer pressure doesn't take away from the fact my decision was stupid to let other people convince me to do things I didn't feel comfortable with.

 

[Zippsy]

Wow. OW instructors certainly must not be teaching the part about personal responsibility well enough. I know it was covered well in my class and, fortunately, I was pretty surprised the first time a DM said he was going to lead me on a dive (around #100 for me). It never occurred to me, before or since then, to let someone else tell me what is safe for me, once I was certified.

Having said that, a DM should know better and both people should be caned for ignoring safety.

 

[Coldwater_Canuck]

Never. I pay at the cash register *always*. Most people pay for meals this way afaik...

Maybe this is a cultural difference, but here almost any nicer restaurant takes your card to the register (I have no idea where they are even located in most places) and I have literally never seen anyone ask to come with the server to watch them pay. There's the odd restaurant where you pay the front, but that is the exception here.

Of course it isn't easy. Lots of things are hard to say no to in life but that doesn't mean people should abdicate responsibility for their own actions because it is 'too hard'. I've said yes to many things in life I shouldn't have due to peer pressure when I was younger (smoking, too many drugs, binge drinking, arrogant men and so on). The peer pressure doesn't take away from the fact my decision was stupid to let other people convince me to do things I didn't feel comfortable with.

True, but also remember this isn't "peer pressure". We're not talking about idiot dive buddies. The divemaster is not your "peer". I'd equate it more to your parent convincing you to smoke or binge drink - they aren't your peer, they are supposed to be above you.