Are resort DM's really that reckless?

[Coldwater_Canuck]

That's not unrealistic, in fact, it's a requirement and is quite easy to do.

After maybe 10 minutes, you get everybody to tell you their tank pressure. Since you know what they all started with, you now know who's sucking a lot of air and have a good idea how long they'll be able to stay.

After another reasonable interval (based on how far they sucked the tank down in the first 10 minutes) repeat until the minimum planned pressure is reached, then start the ascent.

If you're a DM and are going to let your guests run out of air or swim into dangerous holes, they don't need you, they can do that all by themselves.

Terry

Sorry, that makes sense (although I'm surprised it's a requirement). What I meant was that while they can check periodically, only the individual diver can keep a close eye on their own gauge. A divemaster checking is a nice backup plan for you, but I think it's reasonable that divers check their own air.

But really the problem I have isn't even not being more safe with a divemaster: I'm fine with that, I can check my own air and everything. What I take issue with is the possibility of being less safe with a divemaster there.

 

[Coldwater_Canuck]

It is also unrealistic to have them check your certification and logbook at the opening of a swimthrough and turn away those who have never done one.

Depends. While ideally certification should probably be checked, if a diver is knowingly signing up for something they are not qualified for, then I don't have too much sympathy for them if they get in over their head.

However, if the dive is going to be lead into situations that it's reasonable to expect a large number of new divers may be uncomfortable with: let them know before singing up. If you're told on the boat: dive in a situation you're not qualified for or uncomfortable with; or you can sit on the boat the whole time and not get any refunds: you aren't exactly getting two great choices. Divers are paying good money in most cases: make it clear what they are signing up for.

Onto the air question, do you think the DM should end the dive when the first diver hits their turn pressure? Or should they let the LOA diver ascend while allowing the others to continue?

If you answered yes, end the dive, will you feel the same way when you have 2200 PSI and spent 1500$ to be there and someone you never met limits all your dives to 15 minutes?

If you answered no, then why do you feel differently when a DM allows the same divers to choose whether or not to follow them through a coral tunnel?

If it is clear the divemaster is only their to lead, I'm fine with letting the diver ascend with their buddy, as this is something they are qualified to do: plus the choice isn't on the new diver's part as they have to ascend either way.

 

[J.R.]

What I take issue with is the possibility of being less safe with a divemaster there.

.. and how does being with a DM make you any less safe? In Bonaire this summer I was leading a number of divers from our LDS along a wall... some went down 90 feet... some stayed higher up the wall... I tended to stay around 50-60 feet... so the question is... assuming that some of the divers on that diver were OW certified only... is the 'temptation' for them to follow the AOW divers down to deeper depths less than if I had gone down there?

Let's assume that those who went to 90 feet got into a problem... are they at any greater risk because I didn't go to 90 feet with them? ... if I did go to 90 feet what about the OW divers?

Should I have yelled (... or spoken strongly in an authoritative voice) to the AOW divers who went to 90 feet for not staying with 'the group'? Should all of the AOW divers be required to only dive to the depths of the least experienced diver in group? (He had his own buddy by the way...)...

I'm interested in your take on this situation... was I 'endangering' anybody?? Were the AOW group endangering the OW divers? If an OW diver elected to go to 90 feet what do you believe should have been done?

 

[Coldwater_Canuck]

Diving is a personal choice. There are no laws that must be adhered to. A DM only has the authority to force you to stay on the boat, not to force you below a given depth or into an overhead.

I don't care how you justify it, whatever you do on a dive is your own personal choice.

I fail to see how you can blame one person for another's personal choices, especially when that diver has been informed of the risky nature of exceeding their training and yet choose to do so anyway.

But you are kind of agreeing beforehand to follow the divemaster. I know you aren't chained to them, but once you make that agreement most people find it harder to break because the divemaster then becomes an authority figure.

Then again I thought that woman who spilled coffee on her crotch while driving her car would never win that lawsuit either...

That story is so misrepresented in the media. They make it sound like a lady is driving with a coffee between her legs - makes a good image in your mind. In reality it was an elderly passengeer who was just trying to get the lid open when it spilled. I used to think that case was ridiculous, but while spilling coffee on yourself is obviously going to be uncomfortable, it shouldn't cause 3rd degree burns.

 

[Web Monkey]

But really the problem I have isn't even not being more safe with a divemaster: I'm fine with that, I can check my own air and everything. What I take issue with is the possibility of being less safe with a divemaster there.

I was only saying that it wasn't hard, not that it's actually done.

Guided dives have been the least-safe diving experiences I've ever witnessed. One DM refused to surface after my buddy signaled LOA several times (we had actually hired him as a private DM in Coz), another lost the boat and finally led us on a long surface swim in rough chop where I thought an old guy was going to have a heart attack, another took a bunch of 2-day wonders on a narrow swim-through in a coral "canyon" where several of them got shredded, another left a panicked young girl with a leaky reg hanging all alone on the anchor line until she ran out of air and bolted for the surface. There are more, but you get the idea.

A dive with a DM should be safer than without, but I haven't found that to be the case. In each case, the DM caused or enabled more risk and damage than would have happened if the divers were just dropped on a reef and told "be back with 500PSI"

Terry

 

[Coldwater_Canuck]

.. and how does being with a DM make you any less safe? In Bonaire this summer I was leading a number of divers from our LDS along a wall... some went down 90 feet... some stayed higher up the wall... I tended to stay around 50-60 feet... so the question is... assuming that some of the divers on that diver were OW certified only... is the 'temptation' for them to follow the AOW divers down to deeper depths less than if I had gone down there?

I'd be less safe with a DM who leads without thinking of the divers behind him (note: this does not mean all or even most DMs) because if I saw a cave normally I'd never enter it. But if I'm following someone who enters it, I'm not sure what I'd do.

In your case, what was said in the dive brief? Was it supposed to be a 60 foot dive with you leading? In that case what those who went down to 90 feet did is irrelevant: they chose to break away from you, their own choice. If the OW divers followed them: well they weren't supposed to be following them, so completely their fault. If you had agreed on a 60 foot dive where divers follow you and you go to 90 feet: then I'd say you have some responsibility.

 

[NudeDiver]

I dunno who seaducer is, but damn - he sure does have some sense about him.

 

[J.R.]

I dunno who seaducer is, but damn - he sure does have some sense about him.

Yup...

 

[funkcanna]

Personally... if you want to reduce risk... don't look to the DMs... let's look to the agencies who want to keep portraying SCUBA as a wierd blend somewhere between X-games exotic and a quiet walk in the park.

Ok - but arent DM's professional divers representing that agency?

 

[Sas]

I'd be less safe with a DM who leads without thinking of the divers behind him (note: this does not mean all or even most DMs) because if I saw a cave normally I'd never enter it. But if I'm following someone who enters it, I'm not sure what I'd do.

If you would never enter a cave normally why would you enter one if someone else did? From your other posts it seems like you do not want to be impolite, and also that you are not assertive in the face of pressure from someone you consider to be above you. All very nice to be polite and all, but not so great if you have a problem in an overhead environment and you have no training in how to manage the problem... DON'T enter an overhead environment if you do not feel comfortable, it's as simple as that.