Are resort DM's really that reckless?

[seaducer]

But you are kind of agreeing beforehand to follow the divemaster. I know you aren't chained to them, but once you make that agreement most people find it harder to break because the divemaster then becomes an authority figure.

I agree, it can be very hard, especially for someone with little working knowledge of something to disagree with what they view as an authority. But in the end it is your life, don't let someone else risk it for you.

That story is so misrepresented in the media. They make it sound like a lady is driving with a coffee between her legs - makes a good image in your mind. In reality it was an elderly passengeer who was just trying to get the lid open when it spilled. I used to think that case was ridiculous, but while spilling coffee on yourself is obviously going to be uncomfortable, it shouldn't cause 3rd degree burns.

Doesn't change the fact that she spilled the coffee on herself. And regardless 2.8 million dollars is rediculous and 640k is not much better.

Guided dives have been the least-safe diving experiences I've ever witnessed. One DM refused to surface after my buddy signaled LOA several times (we had actually hired him as a private DM in Coz),

I might have a different POV with a "private DM". Most guided dives I have been on have been 8+ divers of varying skill level on a dive boat at Cozumel, Belize, Florida, etc. In this case the DM is just a guide, holding the float, navigating between reefs, finding the swim throughs and seahorses and whatnot. Whether you look at the pretty fish he found or follow him through the hole, all that was optional and stated as much in the brief.

I did once hire a private DM in Bonaire to dive Lac Cai channel. This dive requires extensive local knowledge because of the currents, and how easy it is to get lost and washed out to sea. In that case the DM asked about ability and when the first diver hit our turn pressure we headed for the exit. Had he kept on and we had to surface in the wrong place or had we gotten lost then I would have put some blame on him, since he is the expert and setting the parameters to dive safe in this one specific condition. In this case you may as well be in an overhead because of the conditions of the site. Surfacing along the wall where you dive will blow you out of the channel and can set you on course to Venezuela.

I'd be less safe with a DM who leads without thinking of the divers behind him (note: this does not mean all or even most DMs) because if I saw a cave normally I'd never enter it. But if I'm following someone who enters it, I'm not sure what I'd do.

I will tell you what I would do. I would evaluate the conditions and determine if I have the skills and equipment to safely enter the cave. If I did then I would have to determine if I want to, or if I have some sense of (personally applied) responsibility to the diver who entered. If not, if I don't feel safe, I am more than likely staying out. if I really care about the one who went in I will try to go get them. If I don't know them I will think positive thoughts from the outside.

What you do is ultimately your choice but if you are smart you do something similar. Whatever sense of duty to your buddy you have may be enough to over ride your instincts, if say your wife or children enter. If not, and you don't think you are ready for such conditions, please stay outside. in the worse case scenario that is one less body to extract and bury. Sorry if that sounds graphic but that is what is at stake if you exceed your capabilities. By capabilitied I mean your personal limits, not what X agency stipulates for your certification level. I have a PADI Master Scuba Diver card but there are OW divers who far and away exceed my abilities.

Never let someone talk you into something you aren't ready for. Never follow a DM or anyone else if you feel unsafe. You will gain the skill and experience for all that soon enough.

And as an aside, I would like to thank everybody for a lively and passionate debate that has remained remarkable civilized It may be pretty rare that a disagreement that goes 200+ posts is so well behaved.

 

[seaducer]

Ok - but arent DM's professional divers representing that agency?

Not necessarily. I have no idea what agency certified the DM's employed by the dive ops I have vacationed with. I might assume PADI just based on size but honestly I have no idea if they were even certified as DM's to begin with, or just locals paid to dive with tourists.

I know the DM's that assisted with the various courses I have taken were PADI and SDI. And then they were representing the agency yes. Quite professionaly I might add.

 

[J.R.]

Ok - but arent DM's professional divers representing that agency?

In a sense... I suppose. But that's a darned good question and I'd like to give it the best answer I can...

"Professional diver' is a pretty broad spectrum term... ... and I'd qualify that with the observation that there are *divers* and people with certification cards. You can become a PADI DM with somthing like 60 dives under your belt... (I think that's the number don't remember right off... but it's not that many)... you can become a DM without ever having tasted salt water or having been on a boat. If you want to come and dive midwest mud-pits... I'm yer' boy... if you want to dive the kelp beds off of Montery... I may well know less about it than you do. What this means is that just because somebody wears the monicer "Divemaster" doesn't definitonally mean they know any more about diving than you do.

"Professional" is, as I said above, a broad spectrum term... unfortunately, it's reality often means a lot less than what some would like to mean... (... sounds cool though).

Now I've got a bit more than the 'minimum' number of dives under my belt... but that doesn't necessarily make me an expert... it makes me, perhaps, a bit more competent than the next guy with a few less dives... PROVIDED we're diving in an area I know as well as he does...

As far as 'representing' the agency... that's an interesting concpet... I suppose in some sense one could say i represent PADI... However, I don't speak for them and I don't have their "authority". I don't work "for PADI"... so in another sense I don't represent them...

... but I am bound to follow their directives, policies and proceedures where applicable to what I'm doing.

Now... what DOES a Divemaster offer? Local knowledge. A structured process (through agency standards) of doing refresher courses... a somewhat experienced set of skills as a dive buddy or a tour guide. With luck the DM remembers their AED/CPR/first aid and other emergency proceedures if you get into trouble (they DO have about a day's worth of training...)... and they have some clue from Rescue Class of how to hopefully attempt a rescue if things go wrong (... but I'd note that even in rescue class your taught that "two victums does not a rescue make"... in other words... you use judgement as to whether or not you can effect a rescue without unduely risking your own life... A divemaster and give you some help based on his experience... We've had a bit more training on the physics of diving... the physiology of diving...

Now... those DMs who work for active resorts may well get other training from their employers... but... basic DM isn't much more than that.

I may be missing some some stuff... but this is pretty much it.

...oh... and we're really good at carrying tanks and setting up your gear if that's required...

 

[NudeDiver]

People who sign up for a guided dive with a DM are doing so because they want someone to keep them out of trouble.

Not necessarily. Many times, the DM is foisted upon you whether you want him or not. This was my experience in Egypt and Hawaii - and will be in Cozumel as well.

 

[NudeDiver]

That story is so misrepresented in the media. They make it sound like a lady is driving with a coffee between her legs - makes a good image in your mind. In reality it was an elderly passengeer who was just trying to get the lid open when it spilled.

And can you explain to me why this person needed to open a canister of hot liquid in her car, when, presumably, she was supposed to be driving and not drinking? My understanding is that she did this at the drive through, prior to driving away. Is there some big reason why she couldn't wait until she got to her final destination and found a safe place to deal with her coffee, rather than the confines of the driver area of a vehicle?

Maybe we should have a coffee ban in addition to a cell phone ban for drivers. Or better yet - just ban coffee altogether.

 

[NudeDiver]

Suppose on your first trip to San Fransisco, you want to check out the city. You don't know your way around, and want to make sure you see the best stuff. Also, you know it's a big city, with some bad areas, so you have some concern for your safety too.

So, you sign up with a tour company - promising to show you all the best sights, and provide a comfortable and safe walking tour of the city by a knowledgable guide.

You are following the tour guide through San Fransisco, as he points out the sights, and he says, "you wanna go down by the water?" and you say "yeah, that sounds great" - and then suddenly, without warning, he jumps off the Golden Gate Bridge, are you going to follow him? Are you even going to think twice about what you should do next? Now keep in mind, you've never been to SF before, and you really don't know your way around.

 

[funkcanna]

and then suddenly, without warning, he jumps off the Golden Gate Bridge, are you going to follow him? Are you even going to think twice about what you should do next? Now keep in mind, you've never been to SF before, and you really don't know your way around.

Pretty extreme example there!

Main difference here is that jumping of the golden gate bridge is almost certain death. Entering an overhead environment on a dive is not, it just puts you in uneccessary risk if you are not trained properly for it. And the fact that entering an overhead environment is not certain death puts a question into the new divers mind about whether or not they should follow because there is a good chance it will all be fine.

You dont get this when you contemplate lopping yourself off a bloody big bridge!

 

[J.R.]

You dont get this when you contemplate lopping yourself off a bloody big bridge!

Oh... I don't know... I think there have been one or two survivors...

(26 actually...)

 

[NudeDiver]

Main difference here is that jumping of the golden gate bridge is almost certain death. Entering an overhead environment on a dive is not, it just puts you in uneccessary risk if you are not trained properly for it. And the fact that entering an overhead environment is not certain death puts a question into the new divers mind about whether or not they should follow because there is a good chance it will all be fine.

Yes, perhaps - but this verbose version of the tale that even small children are taught concerning following others blindly does illustrate the point that you shouldn't do it - whether it's involving a bridge, a cave, or some other more unsavoury incident.

 

[bfw]

That story is so misrepresented in the media.

Yes, but not in the way you think.