Are resort DM's really that reckless?

[funkcanna]

Yes, perhaps - but this verbose version of the tale that even small children are taught concerning following others blindly does illustrate the point that you shouldn't do it - whether it's involving a bridge, a cave, or some other more unsavoury incident.

I agree and im sure most do, but this is not how it is! Some people do follow blindly and despite it being their fault, DM's and people in authority need to accept this and plan accordingly.

 

[NudeDiver]

I agree and im sure most do, but this is not how it is! Some people do follow blindly and despite it being their fault, DM's and people in authority need to accept this and plan accordingly.

...and that is the difference between the two major schools of thought that seem to be represented here.

a). Society should dumb itself down and operate at the lowest common denominator - and protect those who refuse to take the necessary amount of personal responsibility from themselves at the expense of everyone else.

b). Expect people to take personal responsibility for themselves, allow them the freedom to fail and suffer the associated consequences if they do fail - while allowing everyone else to achieve their potential.

 

[funkcanna]

...and that is the difference between the two major schools of thought that seem to be represented here.

a). Society should dumb itself down and operate at the lowest common denominator - and protect those who refuse to take the necessary amount of personal responsibility from themselves at the expense of everyone else.

b). Expect people to take personal responsibility for themselves, allow them the freedom to fail and suffer the associated consequences if they do fail - while allowing everyone else to achieve their potential.

I agree with you, but things arent black and white and there has to be meeting in the middle. For example, if DM's want to go into a overhead then ensure its in the briefing and ensure they ask people if they are uncomfortable BEFORE the dive. This is meeting in the middle and is what, IMHO, is required. Offer those who dont want to dive a refund or a separate dive. You know, be safe. Be responsible.

 

[ukslim]

My view: when you start a PADI course, you put complete faith in your instructor. Sure, you have a responsibility to follow their instructions, but by word, action or omission they have it in their power to injure you badly, in your very first enclosed water session.

Before reading this thread, as a newly qualified diver myself, I assumed that this level of trust would extend to a PADI divemaster. The contract, to me, seems to be: "I'm hiring you as a qualified guide. I'm a allowed to think for myself down there, but when given a direct instruction, I obey, because that's what gives you the leverage to keep me safe."

So if a DM gestures me to do something I know I should not, there's a conflict. I want to be able to follow his instructions without question - in an emergency, doing so might save a life. Yet here he is giving instructions I know to be unwise.

I would not be pleased at all if I was put in the position the OP was. I want my DM to be demonstrably scrupulous about safety.

 

[Sas]

My view: when you start a PADI course, you put complete faith in your instructor. Sure, you have a responsibility to follow their instructions, but by word, action or omission they have it in their power to injure you badly, in your very first enclosed water session.

Actually no. I would not put complete faith in my instructor. If they asked me to do something I felt unable to do then I would not do it! I think an instructor is responsible for sure to look after new divers but that doesn't mean I am going to follow them like a lemming if I think they are going to do something stupid. I agree that omissions they make can end up causing harm to another diver and that this is the instructor's fault due to the fact the divers are uncertified. Say for example, they did not make it very very clear to students that they must be responsible for their own safety at all times, rather than leaving it totally in the hands of a guide.

Before reading this thread, as a newly qualified diver myself, I assumed that this level of trust would extend to a PADI divemaster. The contract, to me, seems to be: "I'm hiring you as a qualified guide. I'm a allowed to think for myself down there, but when given a direct instruction, I obey, because that's what gives you the leverage to keep me safe."

No it does not. You are hiring them as a guide. After completing OW you are meant to be a qualified diver, perfectly able to dive without supervision (if not then you should never have been passed in OW). If you do not want to follow them into an unsafe environment then YOU are responsible for making your feelings known. I doubt many DMs would ignore your request. There are always a few bad apples in every job though. Ignore the bad ones and ask for a refund for crappy service after.

So if a DM gestures me to do something I know I should not, there's a conflict. I want to be able to follow his instructions without question - in an emergency, doing so might save a life. Yet here he is giving instructions I know to be unwise.

Or 'her' instructions. I am not sure why every DM talked about in this thread seems to be male, but moving right along... If you know the instructions to be unwise, why would you follow them? I just can't grasp why people find it so difficult to make their feelings known, especially when it can put them in a life threatening situation. You should always question instructions. I (and a number of other students too) questioned my instructors a lot during my training about things I felt were inaccurate or was unsure about and I learned a lot more as a result.

I would not be pleased at all if I was put in the position the OP was. I want my DM to be demonstrably scrupulous about safety.

Sure, I'd be P***ed too if a DM lead me on a dive I didn't want to do and I had to abort the dive rather than follow her into whatever unsafe thing she tried to pull. I'd want a refund/credit/other appropriate compensation for failure to provide the service I wanted. If I DID follow them into a cave, or deeper than I wanted, then I would take full responsibility for the consequences of my actions.

 

[ukslim]

Well, first of all, my instructor was female - but in my language 'he' is shorthand for 'he or she' when the context makes it obvious.

As it happens I passed my OW last weekend, and though I'm sure I'm perfectly able to dive without supervision in certain environments, there's no way I'd wade into an unfamiliar bit of sea with my equally inexperienced partner as a buddy, without a more experienced guide. And the purpose of that guide, as well as navigating us to interesting sights, is our safety.

The point about the trust is that from the very first lesson you *do* put trust in your instructor. Lesson one, you don't even set up your own kit. The only way you know you must never hold your breath is because your instructor told you. They forget to tell you, you can overinflate your lung right there in the swimming pool. Even experienced divers put a lot of trust in third parties: you only buy gas from reputable shops, right - because you believe you can trust them.

 

[Sas]

As it happens I passed my OW last weekend, and though I'm sure I'm perfectly able to dive without supervision in certain environments, there's no way I'd wade into an unfamiliar bit of sea with my equally inexperienced partner as a buddy, without a more experienced guide. And the purpose of that guide, as well as navigating us to interesting sights, is our safety.

I think it is a problem when divers come out of OW courses and do not feel comfortable to dive without supervision. When I was new to diving I went along with club dives for the first few times, where there was a DM present, as I did not have any buddies and I did not know dive sites (in hindsight, given how much information there is on local dive sites in books and on the net, I didn't really need a DM and as such have not been on a guided dive in the last 80 or 90 dives . Anyway, the DM gave us a briefing of what to expect and then just lead us around. No air checks, no setting up of my equipment, and things like that, it was just guiding. That was their purpose. Not my safety, that is my responsibility. I am sure however, that the DMs did have my safety in mind as most people are careful to ensure others' safety, even when it is not required. This is a bonus though, not to be expected.

The point about the trust is that from the very first lesson you *do* put trust in your instructor. Lesson one, you don't even set up your own kit. The only way you know you must never hold your breath is because your instructor told you. They forget to tell you, you can overinflate your lung right there in the swimming pool. Even experienced divers put a lot of trust in third parties: you only buy gas from reputable shops, right - because you believe you can trust them.

Yes true. You want an instructor you can trust, and a dive shop and a DM and so on. However, you mentioned a number of times though how you "want to be able to follow his instructions without question". I would hope that I have an instructor/DM that I can follow all their instructions (i.e. they are reasonable) but I am going to think about them first! What are you going to do if a DM leads you below a depth you are comfortable with? What about if they do not turn a dive when you reach your minimum gas requirement? And so on? You won't always get people who do their job well so you should think about what you will do in those circumstances.

 

[ScubaSteve]

And can you explain to me why this person needed to open a canister of hot liquid in her car, when, presumably, she was supposed to be driving and not drinking? My understanding is that she did this at the drive through, prior to driving away. Is there some big reason why she couldn't wait until she got to her final destination and found a safe place to deal with her coffee, rather than the confines of the driver area of a vehicle?.....

Kids say the darndest things . Why would a person go to a drive through window to get a coffee, only to leave it and not drink it? While I said I would stay out of this thread because, as Seaducer said, it is like a drug, I could not leave this alone. You get a coffee because you want a coffee. If you want a coffee at home, you make a coffee at home (or most people anyways). This woman at least had the presence of mind to open the coffee before she left and got onto the road. I am not arguing anything to do with the case or settlement, just that your comment was *******.

 

[Web Monkey]

For example, if DM's want to go into a overhead then ensure its in the briefing and ensure they ask people if they are uncomfortable BEFORE the dive.

AFAIK, nothing in the PADI DM class curriculum qualifies the DM for a cave dive. He's no more qualified to be there than the noobs he's leading.

Terry

 

[ukslim]

I think it is a problem when divers come out of OW courses and do not feel comfortable to dive without supervision.

I see it as being like passing a driving test. Sure you're legally allowed on the road, but you still have lots to learn. Some people are very confident and drive independently as soon as they have a license. Me, I took months or years before I became confident as a driver.

In diving, I've experienced deep water and very cold water. I have not experienced surf while in scuba gear, nor sea currents, nor who knows what else. I'd like to have an expert on hand when I do.

What are you going to do if a DM leads you below a depth you are comfortable with? What about if they do not turn a dive when you reach your minimum gas requirement? And so on? You won't always get people who do their job well so you should think about what you will do in those circumstances.

It's a problem alright. I really hope it doesn't arise. Let's think about it from the other side - if you're a DM in an emergency, do you want your wards to do what they're told, or do you want them pausing to decide whether they agree?