Are resort DM's really that reckless?

[J.R.]

Basically the big difference is that the decision to abort when you're about to run out of air is pretty black and white, deciding to enter an overhead environment is much more of a grey-area.

REALLY???

So then the newbie diver and the "cave" scenerio is a "grey area"? So why is the DM being taken to task? If the 'newbie diver' in question shared your view that it as a grey area then I don't see ANY culpability on the part of the DM... if the newbie diver saw this as a clear no-no... then there is no difference between the air scenario and the overhead scenario... again... no culpability on the part of the DM.

 

[ScubaSteve]

here horse...good horse.....come closer

 

[Coldwater_Canuck]

REALLY???

So then the newbie diver and the "cave" scenerio is a "grey area"? So why is the DM being taken to task? If the 'newbie diver' in question shared your view that it as a grey area then I don't see ANY culpability on the part of the DM... if the newbie diver saw this as a clear no-no... then there is no difference between the air scenario and the overhead scenario... again... no culpability on the part of the DM.

Again, in the perfect world I'd agree. But the fact is that divers who otherwise wouldn't be entering these types of places and know they shouldn't might if they are following someone who leads them in there. Is there some fault on their part? Of course. But realistically people will follow the leader a lot of the time into these situations (whereas running out of air, even if you go longer than you should, at some point people are going to say "I need to surface".

 

[seaducer]

Diving is a personal choice. There are no laws that must be adhered to. A DM only has the authority to force you to stay on the boat, not to force you below a given depth or into an overhead.

I don't care how you justify it, whatever you do on a dive is your own personal choice.

I fail to see how you can blame one person for another's personal choices, especially when that diver has been informed of the risky nature of exceeding their training and yet choose to do so anyway.

Then again I thought that woman who spilled coffee on her crotch while driving her car would never win that lawsuit either...

 

[Web Monkey]

to speak up in that situation. Also, the DM has no real way ahead of time to know your consumption rate, and while a DM can ask the divers how their air is doing, it's unrealistic to think a divemaster could check everyone's gauges for them.

That's not unrealistic, in fact, it's a requirement and is quite easy to do.

After maybe 10 minutes, you get everybody to tell you their tank pressure. Since you know what they all started with, you now know who's sucking a lot of air and have a good idea how long they'll be able to stay.

After another reasonable interval (based on how far they sucked the tank down in the first 10 minutes) repeat until the minimum planned pressure is reached, then start the ascent.

If you're a DM and are going to let your guests run out of air or swim into dangerous holes, they don't need you, they can do that all by themselves.

Terry

 

[seaducer]

and while a DM can ask the divers how their air is doing, it's unrealistic to think a divemaster could check everyone's gauges for them.

It is also unrealistic to have them check your certification and logbook at the opening of a swimthrough and turn away those who have never done one.

The job of the DM on those dives is to show you what is available on the dive site, be it a wreck, swimthrough, frogfish, etc. Whether you participate or do your own thing is up to you.

Onto the air question, do you think the DM should end the dive when the first diver hits their turn pressure? Or should they let the LOA diver ascend while allowing the others to continue?

If you answered yes, end the dive, will you feel the same way when you have 2200 PSI and spent 1500$ to be there and someone you never met limits all your dives to 15 minutes?

If you answered no, then why do you feel differently when a DM allows the same divers to choose whether or not to follow them through a coral tunnel?

 

[seaducer]

And FYI to the others, I relate being responsible (IMO) to caring, and being irresponsible (IMO) to not caring. So, this I am set with as well.....no changing.

I care about you. Yes, even though I do not know you, on a basic human level I care about ScubaSteve001. And if we ever find ourselves on a dive together I would extend whatever assistence in my power should you require it.

But that does not make me responsible for you nor does it mean I have to follow you someplace I fear to go. Even if you are the working DM on the dive. Or I am.

 

[String]

If the DM is leading the dive, it's his job to take his group to places that they're qualified for and not take them to places they're not.

This isn't optional, unless he's acting in some other capacity than PADI DM. It's in the class materials.

Incorrect. IF he isnt conducting any PADI programme or course and is simply acting as a guide he can do whatever he wants - PADI have absolutely no say in that as he isnt representing them in any way shape or form.

If you want to employ a babysitter then do so, otherwise why should you expect attention just because you cant dive unaided?

 

[J.R.]

It is also unrealistic to have them check your certification and logbook at the opening of a swimthrough and turn away those who have never done one.

... even if one assumes that the logbook is actually accurate...

 

[Web Monkey]

Incorrect. IF he isnt conducting any PADI programme or course and is simply acting as a guide he can do whatever he wants - PADI have absolutely no say in that as he isnt representing them in any way shape or form.

You think not? I'd be willing to bet that if I was a brand new PADI diver and walked into a "PADI 5 Star Dive Facility" and signed up for a boat dive guided by a PADI DM, who promptly took me into a cave where I ran out of air, panicked and died, a jury would see it quite differently.

If you want to employ a babysitter then do so, otherwise why should you expect attention just because you cant dive unaided?

That's exactly the point.

People who sign up for a guided dive with a DM are doing so because they want someone to keep them out of trouble.

I don't dive with a DM and don't want one. However some people do. They have the right to expect a reasonably safe dive that at the very least doesn't include being taken far beyond their training and into unsafe areas. Even if the DM feels lazy and doesn't bother checking air, diver condition and qualifications, the very minimum would be to not actively take the divers somewhere unsafe.

Terry