Are resort DM's really that reckless?

[Coldwater_Canuck]

Why should they? The vast majority are happy doing that sort of thing. It happens with most resorts all round the world every day. Most of the divers regardless of qualification WANT to see caverns and so on.
The caves where i worked in Greece were our most requested dive site. Number of people qualified for it? Zero. Number of divers that did it anyway and love it? Hundreds. Number of divers that didnt want to do it so waited outside? About 4-5 i recall although we did block some divers from doing them based on our observations of their (lack of) skill level.

I meant from what were were taught in training they "should". Whether or not what they taught us was good advice or not, I have no idea.

But here's the big problem I have with this: you're saying at first that diver's should know what they're capable of an all that. But then in this post you're basically saying people shouldn't listen to their training (I know you didn't use those words, but the OW training clearly forbids diving into any enclosed area which you are saying is fine). So if the one thing I do have (training) isn't worth listening to, how is a new diver supposed to know what is safe and what isn't? The impression I get from your posts is:
- the training is wrong
- the divemaster is only their to listen to your commands and not to think about safetyh; and
- you need to know when it's unsafe.

These three points just don't add up to me.

If you're leading you have no responsibility. They aren't paying you to babysit. Generally when guiding my "job" is to provide the most interesting dive possible for the people paying money. So yes that involves going to sites they want and seeing things they want - this includes caves and caverns if available assuming my view of their skill level means i think they're ok there.

I'm not even talking paying. If me and my buddy decide that I'm going to lead our dive (I find it's a bit easier when you pick one person as the leader) and I know he's not qualified past 60 feet, I think it would be irresponsible, at least without talking to him first, to take him down to 100 feet. I'm not being paid, I'm not a trained divemaster, but if you're leading a person or group in any role, I think you do have some responsibility there. And a lot of this thread was people unexpectedly finding themselves in these situations, which says to me the briefings didn't work.

 

[NudeDiver]

And a lot of this thread was people unexpectedly finding themselves in these situations, which says to me the briefings didn't work.

...and what? Diving emergencies only happen when scheduled and expected?? A lot of being a "safe diver" - or a safe anything else, is about being able to handle the unexpected. If you can't handle being unexpectedly lead to an environment which you have not been trained for, a relatively easy thing to handle, are you are you going to deal with unexpectedly having to deal with a dive buddy who is out of air and panicking, convulsing due to O2 toxicity, or passing his regulator around to all the cute little fishies because he is narced out of his mind?

If someone needs training in "how to say 'no' to a DM or anyone else" then they should go out and get themselves some before their next dive trip.

 

[bleeb]

If someone needs training in "how to say 'no' to a DM or anyone else" then they should go out and get themselves some before their next dive trip.

There are probably at least a few new divers who weren't taught emphatically enough or who didn't assimilate enough that there are times that they should say 'no' to someone, especially a DM. At the same time, new divers have a large amount of novel information to assimilate. One part of that is learning judgment and how to determine what is 'appropriate' safety behavior. There are probably at least a few other new divers who don't know the information well enough or who aren't comfortable enough in their knowledge and defer to someone else who they think has the definitive answer. Some of those lines as to 'acceptable' behavior are gray enough for those of us with the benefit of experience and knowledgeable peers like on SB to learn from.

I think others have tried to say similar things, in other ways.

 

[emttim]

Both the divers and the DMs are at fault. I don't think either or is responsible, to be honest with you guys.

Consider this: when someone goes through Open Water training, at least in PADI's class, it is (or should be) strongly emphasized that they should not dive beyond the limits of their training and to never go into an overhead environment without training for it. If a diver goes against that, then he/she is responsible for whatever happens as a result of them ignoring their training. Do they deserve it? Absolutely not. Is the DM also at fault? Hell yes. Should they have known better? Maybe. Depends on how good their instructor was at emphasizing that little jewel.

I love the response of giving the DM the finger, hehe. I'll have to remember that when I start doing resort diving...might come in handy.

 

[NudeDiver]

So, when you peel it all back, what is being suggested is that, once again, society operate at the lowest common denominator.

In this case, we're talking about the society of divers that boards whatever particular dive boat, or finds themselves grouped together with whatever particular DM, and the lowest common denominator is whatever level of low or mal-training someone may have received. Instead of expecting people, who are more commonly than not, otherwise competent and independent adults, usually capable of (or at least expected to) engage in reasonably sound decision making, we hold EVERYONE ELSE back to the level of the least capable (or perhaps least assertive) diver.

Same thing happens in many of today's classrooms. Half the children are bored witless, so that the other half, which ARE witless, don't get "left behind."

I'm all for diving to one's capabilities, and using the buddy system as a limiting factor among pairs, but limiting whole groups of people because some of those people may be too timid to speak up, no matter WHAT their reason is, seems silly.

Reminds me of the time I was at the deli counter waiting for something. I was waiting for whatever it was I ordered and there was a line of people ordering stuff. There was some little girl there, I dunno how old she was - 8, 9, 10, 11 (who knows, I'm not good at estimating the ages of little girls), but she was sort of at the counter with money in her hand, but the guy wasn't taking any orders from her. In the meantime, the people in the line were ordering, sort of coming and going. No one is paying much attention to the little girl. At some point, her mother (I assume it was her mother) came along and was surprised the little girl didn't have her stuff yet (she had been there a while). Little girl meekly said something or another, and mommy said, in a rather loud voice, to the person behind the counter, something along the lines of how her child shouldn't be ignored as a customer, blah, blah, blah - and then - and this is the point, berated the child in a similar manner - telling her something to the effect of, "you need to speak up and make your voice heard, or you'll never get anywhere in life!" I couldn't believe it! Rather than just blaming someone else (the clerk), she actually provided helpful and useful life advice to the child. It was a rare public display of good parenting. Props to mom!

 

[emttim]

So, when you peel it all back, what is being suggested is that, once again, society operate at the lowest common denominator.

In this case, we're talking about the society of divers that boards whatever particular dive boat, or finds themselves grouped together with whatever particular DM, and the lowest common denominator is whatever level of low or mal-training someone may have received. Instead of expecting people, who are more commonly than not, otherwise competent and independent adults, usually capable of (or at least expected to) engage in reasonably sound decision making, we hold EVERYONE ELSE back to the level of the least capable (or perhaps least assertive) diver.

Same thing happens in many of today's classrooms. Half the children are bored witless, so that the other half, which ARE witless, don't get "left behind."

I'm all for diving to one's capabilities, and using the buddy system as a limiting factor among pairs, but limiting whole groups of people because some of those people may be too timid to speak up, no matter WHAT their reason is, seems silly.

Reminds me of the time I was at the deli counter waiting for something. I was waiting for whatever it was I ordered and there was a line of people ordering stuff. There was some little girl there, I dunno how old she was - 8, 9, 10, 11 (who knows, I'm not good at estimating the ages of little girls), but she was sort of at the counter with money in her hand, but the guy wasn't taking any orders from her. In the meantime, the people in the line were ordering, sort of coming and going. No one is paying much attention to the little girl. At some point, her mother (I assume it was her mother) came along and was surprised the little girl didn't have her stuff yet (she had been there a while). Little girl meekly said something or another, and mommy said, in a rather loud voice, to the person behind the counter, something along the lines of how her child shouldn't be ignored as a customer, blah, blah, blah - and then - and this is the point, berated the child in a similar manner - telling her something to the effect of, "you need to speak up and make your voice heard, or you'll never get anywhere in life!" I couldn't believe it! Rather than just blaming someone else (the clerk), she actually provided helpful and useful life advice to the child. It was a rare public display of good parenting. Props to mom!

We need to find this woman and clone her. There's too many goddamn idiots reproducing these days and making more idiots who just blame everything on somebody else.

 

[funkcanna]

String / Nude et all

What you are saying is fundamentally correct. Divers ARE responsible for their own safety and SHOULD have the balls to say no. But lets get back to reality rather than the ideal. The fact is diving instruction can be severely lacking at times and some OW divers have had maybe a few hours instruction. Blame whoever for this (the dive centre, the instructor or the agency) but the fact remains some divers who are qualified just arent that good, quite often due to no fault of their own. Does this mean that they deserve to be put in danger? You may be right when you say they need to quit diving, but again - should they be put in danger because they arent very good? Particularly when that lack of skill is down to their instruction.

By focusing on how it SHOULD be you are sidestepping the reality. I agree with every thing you say (almost!) but that is not reality and I dont think people should be put in potentially life threatening situations regardless.

I think a meet-in-the-middle approach is needed here, its not black and white and not as simple to either blame the DM's or blame the divers. I think each situation is different and I beleive DM's have their work cut out assessing it.

I for one would not like to have a diver in my group die or be injured if I can avoid it, regardless of my defined role.

 

[Hammerhead]

By no means do I condone a DM being irresponsible while leading a dive, but people tend to not assume responsibility for their actions and look for someone else to blame.

Surely this works both ways.

The DM can say about the "Qualified Diver" (apologies for the gender-specific bit. I'm lazy): -

"Well, he's certified, and surely HE can make HIS own mind up if this dive is right for HIM"

The "Qualified Diver" can reply, equally correctly

"yeah, I do, but I've never dived HERE before, in THESE conditions, hence I'm paying YOU"

In the circs, I'd expect the DM to question the new diver about their experience and conversely, the new diver should be prepared to ask for details of the dive and apply that to their own existing experience to see if they're happy.

It works both ways, but I feel that we should not let the DM get off too easily. Local experience and years of diving will always trump an eager noob, who may well over-estimate what he's capable of.

Depth limits are suggestions, there's no law that prevents a recently minted diver to go beyond 60' you are the only person who really knows if you are able to make such dive.

The problem is that you don't because you've not done it yet. I'm not a DM (got a "proper job" before I finished the course, but after 1500 dives and 12 years as Web Monkey put it earlier, I'm happy to tell someone where to get off if I don't like what's on the table.

At 50 dives, I too would have probably followed a DM who seemed confident and competent.

Ask Rhadamantus what happened on her first drift dive with a "confident and competent"-looking instructor.

I was there, and it wasn't pretty.

 

[NudeDiver]

Does this mean that they deserve to be put in danger?

But I don't think that's the question. It's more like, "Do they deserve to put THEMSELVES in danger?" I have no idea. That's why we have Darwin Awards. Let the committee decide.

I dont think people should be put in potentially life threatening situations regardless.

Diving is a potentially life threatening situation, no matter what the diving environment is. By your logic, people should just stay out of the water.

I for one would not like to have a diver in my group die or be injured if I can avoid it, regardless of my defined role.

Me either. But if it happens because they violate the training they have received, or didn't bother to understand the basics of safe diving through their own initiative (in the event they received poor training), and it wasn't due to some fault of mine, then I'm not going to feel too guilty about it just because they saw me descend into a hole they were not prepared for and they followed me anyway.

 

[ScubaSteve]

This goes out to a DM (and not a digital wannabe). What is taught in training for the DM certification? Is there any direction given or taught on how to lead dives? Is there anything at all that says to cater a dive to the weakest of the group or how to plan the dive with a group? Is there anything that states you should keep dives to the training level of your divers? Is there anything that says not to take open water divers with 3 post certification dives on a cave dive? Anything at all? I am not a DM and it is likely that most of the people on this thread are not. I am curious.