Are resort DM's really that reckless?

[seaducer]

One thing you will learn quickly from posting here on SB, it is almost impossible to not offend someone. Some people (and I really am not referencing anybody who has posted on this thread), it seems, just come onto SB to confront people. While this can be a PITA, it really does trigger some pretty good debates and you get to see a lot of good perspectives on problems and also how people handle themselves when "called on". A problem with some of the posters on SB is that "Wikipedia and Google are their friends".

I don't think anyone got offensive on this thread, did they? I didn't pick up on it at any rate. I don't mind a good passionate debate with facts and perspectives, and hopefully respect. I have come to realize both on SB and elsewhere, some people have a martyr complex. Nobody has the right to not be offended. At the same time I try not to be offensive, but sometimes you just gotta let em have it

Anyway, I personally think this thread has alot of value for the new diver. Leaving aside the "who is responsible" arguement, I think the new diver reading this gets a feel for how things are conducted in the real world, and I hope it enables one or two to have the stones to abort a dive where they are really feeling uncomfortable. And I hope it drives home the point that nobody cares about you the way you do, so don't let someone talk you into doing something you are afraid to do. Know your limits and push them wisely.

 

[ScubaSteve]

I don't think anyone got offensive on this thread, did they? I didn't pick up on it at any rate. I don't mind a good passionate debate with facts and perspectives, and hopefully respect. I have come to realize both on SB and elsewhere, some people have a martyr complex. Nobody has the right to not be offended. At the same time I try not to be offensive, but sometimes you just gotta let em have it

Anyway, I personally think this thread has alot of value for the new diver. Leaving aside the "who is responsible" arguement, I think the new diver reading this gets a feel for how things are conducted in the real world, and I hope it enables one or two to have the stones to abort a dive where they are really feeling uncomfortable. And I hope it drives home the point that nobody cares about you the way you do, so don't let someone talk you into doing something you are afraid to do. Know your limits and push them wisely.

Perhaps you should read my entire post rather than stopping where you obviously did. You would see simply by reading that I found this to be a great thread as well. A lot of good information came out. Also, if you read the post which I quoted you would see that the OP quoted another poster as saying

.....I'm afraid I have to take a bit of issue with that....

Somebody got offended which is why I said that someone always will. That is life.

 

[String]

I never said I had any "proof", all I'm saying is for a 2 day old thread to see that many issues seems like it's more than a coincidence.

So in summary then, no proof at all these types of dives are causing incidents.

We have one poster saying first hand a friend basically quit because of safety violations,

That person obviously wasn't confident enough to be diving in the first place or needs further training.

and multiple others saying they were led on dives way past where they should have been.

That's their fault - again they have a choice of where to go. They can choose not to dive. Other people maybe perfectly happy doing that dive and again its their choice.

You are qualified without supervision, and again in the case of a boat dive where the dive master stays on a boat, or even a dive where the divemaster is "with" you I'm not saying anything about. It's when you agree to follow someone, you are no longer completely in control of your own dive:

Yes you are - you can wait outside, you can abort. Nobody says you have to follow them anywhere at all. You are NEVER out of control of your own dive. A divemaster not teaching on a course is a tourguide - nothing more. No responsibility what so ever and is required to do no more than any other qualified diver.

And see even an experienced diver went longer than he felt he should have before breaking it off.

Again, its his choice to call if and when he thinks he has to. Nobody elses.

 

[String]

So as a DM being followed by a bunch of divers, you're okay with leading them into a cavern having never asked any of them if they were comfortable, let alone qualified, to enter this situation?

They are told in the brief what is going to happen. They have a chance then to not dive or wait outside or sometimes if there are 2 groups go into the novice group instead.

Yes, the people following you should all just give you the finger and abort the dive at that point: but why put them in the situation to begin with?

Why should they? The vast majority are happy doing that sort of thing. It happens with most resorts all round the world every day. Most of the divers regardless of qualification WANT to see caverns and so on.
The caves where i worked in Greece were our most requested dive site. Number of people qualified for it? Zero. Number of divers that did it anyway and love it? Hundreds. Number of divers that didnt want to do it so waited outside? About 4-5 i recall although we did block some divers from doing them based on our observations of their (lack of) skill level.

And this isn't even a professional/divemaster situation in itself. If you're leading a group of divers, whatever your qualification; or even if you're just leading you and your buddy, I think it's irresponsible to start doing things like entering caverns without having discussed it ahead of time in the dive plan.

If you're leading you have no responsibility. They aren't paying you to babysit. Generally when guiding my "job" is to provide the most interesting dive possible for the people paying money. So yes that involves going to sites they want and seeing things they want - this includes caves and caverns if available assuming my view of their skill level means i think they're ok there.

Yes its mentioned in the briefing before hand and i cant imagine ANYONE not mentioning it in the brief - normally its the highlight of the dive for everyone so you use it as a big selling point.

IF there is no briefing before the dive its bad practice by the company and id have some sympathy. If its briefed before hand the choice of dive is 100% with the individuals involved.

Yes and that's why we have rules to keep us safe. Staying within yoru depth range and not entering wrecks and caverns are a couple of the big ones:

Those aren't rules. They're recommendations. Very very very few divers NEVER violate those at some point in their life. Plus in order to expand knowledge and experience the whole point is to gradually stretch those whilst maintaining control.

 

[Katamuki]

Sometimes I disagree with String a bit but in these two posts I find myself agreeing wholeheartedly! The DM/guide does not know what the divers skill level is except that the diver shows up to the boat as certified. If a diver is not sure they can do the dive then they need to speak up.

Like String, when I guide I brief a dive site which by definition is an "interesting" one an give current, depth, time, basic air guidelines, rescue/problems/solutions, boat protocol, and of course expected site details. Everyone long before this has shown a cert card before they even got on the boat. I will always do my best to work with varied skill levels and try to keep a dive in the narrow range of the least experienced diver. Many many times though I have divers talking the talk about thier skill levels which dont show up underwater.

I commonly do swim throughs both large and some quite small, take divers into narrow gorges to lay in the sand with sharks swimming and go on drift dives of over 4knots. Never lost anyone yet and I do it almost every day, every week, month, all year long.

 

[bfw]

If people didn't dive beyond their training and experience and avoided "trust me" dives there probably wouldn't be so much to read in the accidents and incidents forum.

Translation: DM's wouldn't be taking divers on dives beyond their abilities if there weren't so many people willing to pay them to do so. They're just like any other business, from Detroit churning out gaz guzzlers to tobacco companies - just giving customers what they want.

 

[String]

If people didn't dive beyond their training and experience and avoided "trust me" dives there probably wouldn't be so much to read in the accidents and incidents forum.

Really. I can see lots of posts in there and very few of those appear to by anything to do with someone else taking a diver further than the recommendations say they should...

 

[LowVizWiz]

Really. I can see lots of posts in there and very few of those appear to by anything to do with someone else taking a diver further than the recommendations say they should...

If you read the thread you will see the context in which the post was made!

 

[Coldwater_Canuck]

1. So in summary then, no proof at all these types of dives are causing incidents.

2. That person obviously wasn't confident enough to be diving in the first place or needs further training.

3. That's their fault - again they have a choice of where to go. They can choose not to dive. Other people maybe perfectly happy doing that dive and again its their choice.

4. Yes you are - you can wait outside, you can abort. Nobody says you have to follow them anywhere at all. You are NEVER out of control of your own dive. A divemaster not teaching on a course is a tourguide - nothing more. No responsibility what so ever and is required to do no more than any other qualified diver.

5.Again, its his choice to call if and when he thinks he has to. Nobody elses.

[/quote]
1. Never said it was the case, only that something seems a bit suspicious

2. Read the post, the person was a divemaster/instructor not just a diver and he quit his job as a Carribean divemaster because the resort was forcing him to do his job in a way he felt was dangerous to those following him.

3/4/5. I don't disagree that people are responsible for their own dives, but while it's nice to think "if you're uncomfortable, just abort", most people, especially those who are inexperienced, aren't going to find it that easy. As I said, the experienced diver didn't even abort when he felt he probably should have, a new diver is going to be even more reluctant.

 

[NudeDiver]

I don't disagree that people are responsible for their own dives, but while it's nice to think "if you're uncomfortable, just abort", most people, especially those who are inexperienced, aren't going to find it that easy. As I said, the experienced diver didn't even abort when he felt he probably should have, a new diver is going to be even more reluctant.

If people can't be assertive enough to protect their own safety, then really, whose fault is that? Man up and get some cajones.

It's like that scene from Full Metal Jacket where the DI belts the guy who says he doesn't believe in god. DI tells him, "you better sound off that you love the virgin mary numnuts or else..." and the recruit tells him, "no sir - the recruit believes that if he changes his answer now, the DI will only beat him even harder..." and the DI, respecting the recruit, promotes him to platoon leader.

Sometimes, you just gotta stand up and say "no" - or in the case of some people on here, give the finger. If you're not willing or able to do this, well, you may suffer some undesirable consequences - whether diving or doing something else. Solution can be found here.

Good luck!
nd