Are resort DM's really that reckless?

[Zieg]

What is this obsession people seem to have with giving DMs the finger? It's kind of like punching someone's lights out if they happen to bump into you on a crowded train. Yeah - it gets your message across - but damn, it's overkill and hardly necessary. Also not very conducive to maintaining a positive relationship.

Yeah, what IS with this. Personally I never restrict my finger to just DM's. I am an equal opportunity finger giver. I guess it's my early warning signal that soon further contact may follow if the present behavior does not cease and desist.

 

[scubaskipper]

My best advice would be to listen carefully to the breifing. If you have ANY questions, ask. If you don't feel comfortable asking in front of others, get the DM off to the side let them know what's bothering you and adjustments should be made. In the case of swim thrus, most times you can follow the bubble trail and meet the group at the other end.

It's hard for a DM to know the experience of a larger group. This is very common in resort locations. You'll have every type diver from, all I need is a ride to the site to ones that latch onto you like a remora. Be honest with yourself. If you need someone to watch out for you, hire a private guide, don't hold back the whole group to accomodate one persons experience level. This can also be handled by telling the people at the desk when you sign up. Many times there is an effort made to keep divers with the same level of experience on different boats.

I agree, many times it's hard to buck the authority figure. Just remember you're responsible for you.

 

[NudeDiver]

Yeah, what IS with this. Personally I never restrict my finger to just DM's.

Gotta be careful where you stick your finger.....

 

[Zieg]

Gotta be careful where you stick your finger.....

Touche'

 

[Web Monkey]

The majority of this conversation is about newly certified divers and their not wanting to refuse a DM or trusting a DM and as string and others have said, its not the DM's responsibility to babysit these people, but in reality we are specifically talking about resorts who take non-certified tourists on unsafe dives (as I took from the OP's initial post).

You know the funny part is that that is exactly what the DM's job is.

Actually, I can't speak specifcally for DM requirements, but the SSI DiveCon book has an entire chapter devoted to leading dives and specifically mentions giving and discussing and following the dive briefing as well as keeping an eye on inexperienced divers and their gas supply.

If the DM is giving a guided tour to new divers, it's his/her responsibility at the very least to not lead them into dangerous situations. DMs might not be able to protect divers from all possible risks, but if the dive briefing says " Maximum depth 60' and start your ascent when the first diver hits 800PSI", they had damn sure better not be taking everybody to 80' and running people out of air.

If the DM does not wish to be responsible for the divers, then the briefing can consist of a description of the site and "Be back with 500PSI or an hour, whichever comes first." and then stay on the boat.

Terry

 

[I Dive]

Actually, I can't speak specifcally for DM requirements, but the SSI DiveCon book has an entire chapter devoted to leading dives and specifically mentions giving and discussing and following the dive briefing as well as keeping an eye on inexperienced divers and their gas supply.

Terry

It's the same for PADI DM's, Chapter Two is "Supervising General Diving Activities for Certified Divers", with one of the subchapters titled "Dive Briefings" and as far as page count goes, the chapter is nearly 25% of the book, making it the largest chapter.

 

[DiverDurf]

If you want to blast a SPECIFIC DM or resport for poor operations ... that's one thing... but to start a thread that, by inuendo if not blaitant statement challenges the competence and professionalism of DMs in general... I'm afraid I have to take a bit of issue with that... specifically if you choose to do so by starting as an appologist for divers who won't take personal responsibility for their dives.

I am the original poster, and I would just like to clarify something. I said up front that I am brand new to this sport, which equates to "I don't know jack" about it other than what my 2-day class taught me. I am gaining experience as quickly as possible and reading multiple threads far more often than I really have time to; but that's just something I do to learn as much as I can.

Also, my comment about DM's in general is exactly that. If you read the accidents and mishaps thread and start from the last page and work your way back, by page 60 something you will see a reoccurring pattern. It just stood out to me that a lot of the resort DM's were accustomed to taking their groups on deep dives or through tunnel swims, and the posters were complaining about the safety of the dives due to the variances in diver experience. I have since learned (through this very thread) more on how resort dive operations work. That's part of the equation that was missing in the accident/mishap thread, and perhaps I could/should have titled the thread: "Just exactly how do resort dives operate with groups of varrying experience?" Again, I don't have the experience or the credibility to place specific blame on any one DM or resort (nor would I necessarily want to), but as a newbie diver I started the thread in the hopes that the fine members here could shed some light on the subject (which they have). I am extremely grateful for all of the posts here as it's taught me even that much more. I never intended to offend anyone with the thread, and I never intended to place specific blame on anyone. It was just an honest question I had.

 

[rhadamantus]

oh- don't mind some people- especially the ones who misunderstood your original question.

anyway, i believe bad events or occurrences are always highlighted more often than good or excellent practices- so i am not surprised it gave you the idea or triggered you to start this thread.

personally, i find resort DMs pretty reliable and responsible- as with independent ones, as well (but i don't have that many dives under my belt yet). what i think varies from one resort to the other (and to the extent, compared to DMs that are independently operating from the resorts) is that some resorts do not separate divers based on experience. that, and some resorts do tend to put just 1 DM for a large group of divers. but that is more of a resort policy/practices than anything else.

I am the original poster, and I would just like to clarify something. I said up front that I am brand new to this sport, which equates to "I don't know jack" about it other than what my 2-day class taught me. I am gaining experience as quickly as possible and reading multiple threads far more often than I really have time to; but that's just something I do to learn as much as I can.

Also, my comment about DM's in general is exactly that. If you read the accidents and mishaps thread and start from the last page and work your way back, by page 60 something you will see a reoccurring pattern. It just stood out to me that a lot of the resort DM's were accustomed to taking their groups on deep dives or through tunnel swims, and the posters were complaining about the safety of the dives due to the variances in diver experience. I have since learned (through this very thread) more on how resort dive operations work. That's part of the equation that was missing in the accident/mishap thread, and perhaps I could/should have titled the thread: "Just exactly how do resort dives operate with groups of varrying experience?" Again, I don't have the experience or the credibility to place specific blame on any one DM or resort (nor would I necessarily want to), but as a newbie diver I started the thread in the hopes that the fine members here could shed some light on the subject (which they have). I am extremely grateful for all of the posts here as it's taught me even that much more. I never intended to offend anyone with the thread, and I never intended to place specific blame on anyone. It was just an honest question I had.

 

[seaducer]

Yes and that's why we have rules to keep us safe. Staying within yoru depth range and not entering wrecks and caverns are a couple of the big ones: But, as someone posted before with an excellent example, the Milgram experiement, people tend to do what the authority figure tells them, even if their own brain tells them it's wrong.

I have seen the Milgram experiment mentioned a few times as a reference for people following orders given to them by an "authority figure". There is another way of looking at this experiment, not that people will follow whatever rule is posted (otherwise we wouldn't need cops to patrol the roads catching speeders and red light runners), but to show just how sadistic people are when they think they are safe from recipropcation or punishment. If the boss says it is ok to inflict pain on someone, you won't get in trouble, you might just blast them. Nothing to do with obedience.

Bringing this back on topic, I realize alot of new divers are posting here, and I sympathize with you for feeling like you should be following the orders of a DM. You don't have to, and you should have the skills to make your own dives.

And one day you will be the crusty old salt on the boat, 1000+ dives, and here is some 20 year old kid with 85 lifetime dives and newly minted DM card telling you what to do and what not to do, well, you are going to do what you know to be safe, regardless. And if said DM gets in your face after the dive, you can just pull out your cane and beat some wisdom into him.

The only time I would blame a DM for an accident (outside a training environment) is when local knowledge is required to dive safely. If a DM guiding me in Lac Cai, Bonaire gets us lost, I will have some words for him/her when we are floating around hoping a boat spots us. Otherwise, if I am uncomfortable I am ending my dive. Please, regardless of how many dives you have done to date, do not ever hesitate to do the same, no matter what the "leader" signals. You give the Fonzi up sign, you go up, alone if necessary. If you lack the skills to do a solo ascent, go back to your OW instructor and have them finish the job you paid them for. If it is confidence you lack, find a good buddy and go practice somewhere safe.

And whatever you do never do anything just because a DM does it. The beer fines ended with OW class, they can't do anything to you now

 

[ScubaSteve]

.....I never intended to offend anyone with the thread......

One thing you will learn quickly from posting here on SB, it is almost impossible to not offend someone. Some people (and I really am not referencing anybody who has posted on this thread), it seems, just come onto SB to confront people. While this can be a PITA, it really does trigger some pretty good debates and you get to see a lot of good perspectives on problems and also how people handle themselves when "called on". A problem with some of the posters on SB is that "Wikipedia and Google are their friends". I am glad you asked the question you did because I learned a lot about the various posters and how they see liability (or lack there of) being shared (or not).

It brought to light one excellent point. If we want only to dive with a DM that actually cares about our safety, we need to ask up front. If you feel you need the attention of the DM, ask up front for it. That way, you should be able to feel confident they will actually be watching over you. As everybody has said, no diver is ever absolved of responsibility no matter what. We have been trained and it is our responsibility to do what we were trained to do. I think many of the other points were widely known already (state clearly your expereince, pay attention to the briefing, stay within your training and comfort etc.). Thanks for asking the question.