Are resort DM's really that reckless?

[don Francisco]

So then what is the purpose of having dive masters? Based on what you're saying, shouldn't we just drop the dive master certification? On a boat, if they aren't responsible for safety at all, there really is no point. For guiding groups, if the leader has no responsibility we are just as well off giving the job to someone with their OW certification who knows the area.

There's a difference between a divemaster and a nanny. Instructors have to be responsible for their charges' safety because it's assumed that uncertified don't know any better, and are not able to take care of themselves.

On the other hand, certified divers should be able to take care of themselves, and what the divemaster brings to the table is his knowledge of local conditions, and a resonable dive plan. Also, in the event it's needed the DM can be a backup safety net when the untoward happens. But it isn't reasonable to expect the DM to be everywhere, so divers still have to be in charge of their own safety.

By it's very nature diving is a sport that requires self reliance, and divers forget that at their own peril.

 

[mheaster]

Question to anyone who uses a Pony: Is it a good idea for a new diver to just run out and buy one or is there some sort of training they should seek out first? I can't imagine they are overly complicated but it is a new set of gear that I would think at least some skills should be practiced with before using. Maybe I'm wrong, I honestly don't know much more about them than what they are...

I would suggest if you decide to purchase/use one that you train with it in a controlled environment first. Not necessarily a Swimming pool but we typically use a local quarry for many training dives and getting use to carrying, and using a pony in 25-30 feet of still, clear warm quarry water is great choice vs. jumping in to churning 100+ feet of Seawater using a brand-spanking new Pony bottle for 1st time!

I especially like the way you brought the Pony subject into the thread that just covered Beating a Dead Horse!

 

[Coldwater_Canuck]

There is no reason to believe that an entire Dive Operation would deny a majority a more challenging dive because a minority of divers want/need/are not able to comfortably or safely make the same dive. New Divers need to develop experience and should be offered the opportunity to make fun dives in their ability/comfort range but these divers also have a responsibility to book/ensure what they are booking /paying for.

Of course, but that isn't really the point of this thread (people signing up for the wrong boat). The original poster was saying that it seems a disproportionate amount of accidents seem to happen at dive resorts where it seems there is no sense of safety. This thread will go around in circles blaming the divers or the divemasters, so I won't get into that again. But if you read through the whole thread and see some first hand accounts, it doesn't seem like these are just cases of people signing up for the wrong trip. People are being put into akward situations where they have to make difficult choices that really shouldn't need to be made in the first place.

Whoever's "fault", whether it's the diver's, the divemasters, or the resorts themselves, read through this thread, it seems pretty obvious something isn't right with these places. As one poster not too far before us put, a friend of his had to quit because he was expected to to put quick money before safety. And I guess just training in the USA where safety seems to always be the number one concern, this is a bit shocking to me.

I admit I was probably a bit harsh in my original criticisms of the individuals involved, when it now seems as though this is a more systematic problem. I guess I take this seriously because I'm so inexperienced that I take advice from other divers, especially those who are more experienced, and especially those who are "professionals" very seriously. I'm not going to be a complete moron, but at the same time I am inclined to trust them. And so far that has worked great for me, because they all were people who I felt I could trust and who gave me great advice.

So I guess that's why I probably got a little carried away with this issue: it's easy to say after the fact "you should know your limitations", but it's tough when you have limited experience to reject what someone who should know 10x more than you is saying. And as a new diver, I just don't know my own comfort zones yet, so it's difficult to put up an argument about what I feel is safe for me and what I don't. It seems it's mostly newer divers who are frustrated in this thread, and I think it's because most of us could see ourselves in these same situations (some have been in them) where bad advice is leading to tragic consequences.

 

[Coldwater_Canuck]

There's a difference between a divemaster and a nanny. Instructors have to be responsible for their charges' safety because it's assumed that uncertified don't know any better, and are not able to take care of themselves.

On the other hand, certified divers should be able to take care of themselves, and what the divemaster brings to the table is his knowledge of local conditions, and a resonable dive plan. Also, in the event it's needed the DM can be a backup safety net when the untoward happens. But it isn't reasonable to expect the DM to be everywhere, so divers still have to be in charge of their own safety.

By it's very nature diving is a sport that requires self reliance, and divers forget that at their own peril.

I think people are misinterpreting me, I'm not advocating that divemasters have to be responsible for everyone. Far from it, if I'm on a boat dive I realize the divemaster in the boat 50 feet above me probably can't do a whole lot if I run out of air. And in fact I don't even really like diving with a buddy and a dive master because I find it just causes a lot more stress having two people you have to keep your eye on and communicate with.

What my comments were in reference to (and I may have strayed a bit from the point) is it seems that at some of these places the dive masters seem to be making the dives more dangerous by putting unqualified divers into a tough situation where they need to make some tough decisions. At the very least I'd expect a divemaster to be neutral: not make things more dangerous. A couple of the posters in this thread probably would have been safer without the divemaster because they would have never entered an enclosed space were it not for him being there. And that's what this thread is about, although I think we're all a bit guilty of letting it drift. As I said, it just kind of pains me to see the tragic consequences so I got a little carried away.

 

[String]

The original poster was saying that it seems a disproportionate amount of accidents seem to happen at dive resorts where it seems there is no sense of safety.

...and provided no evidence or figures to back up the claim. Having read the accident reports that are available from the various bodies there doesn't seem to be any trend at all towards certain resorts (or resorts in general) having more incidents than the norm.

 

[Redshift]

Carry a redundant air source if you think the chances of 2 catastrophic failures are going to happen within 2 minutes of each other. You're also assuming a group diving buddy will be near enough or competent enough to actually donate air. Relying on others is never a good thing.

We are talking mainly about new divers. They usually have other priorities when it comes to buying gear and how many of them are aware of redundant air sources? In some places it's really rare to see someone with a pony on a rec dive...

Send your delayed SMB up so the boat can find you. If you aren't carrying one, why not?

OW divers don't learn how to send up an SMB. Many of them don't even talk about those things! And many of those who may talk about it will probably lack the buoyancy control to send a SMB in mid water (and I say mid water because those SMBs that come with a bit of line attached, sometimes weighted, don't require the use of a reel which they would need further teaching and training to use have a short line and can't be sent from the bottom).

There's a difference between a divemaster and a nanny. Instructors have to be responsible for their charges' safety because it's assumed that uncertified don't know any better, and are not able to take care of themselves.

On the other hand, certified divers should be able to take care of themselves, and what the divemaster brings to the table is his knowledge of local conditions, and a resonable dive plan. Also, in the event it's needed the DM can be a backup safety net when the untoward happens. But it isn't reasonable to expect the DM to be everywhere, so divers still have to be in charge of their own safety.

By it's very nature diving is a sport that requires self reliance, and divers forget that at their own peril.

That's not entirely true. In some agencies, divers with the first level can only dive under supervision.

 

[Coldwater_Canuck]

...and provided no evidence or figures to back up the claim. Having read the accident reports that are available from the various bodies there doesn't seem to be any trend at all towards certain resorts (or resorts in general) having more incidents than the norm.

but is it just a coincidence that in the 2 days this topic has been open there's been at least 3 posters reporting being pressured into situations they felt uncomfortable and unqualified for at resorts, plus another whose friend had to leave because he cared about safety? Maybe, 4 people is certainly not hard evidence, but I also wouldn't just dismiss it.

 

[scubagoldmc]

Striing,

Thanks for your reply. We have learned to not follow DMs or instructors that are doing/asking for things we aren't comfortable with. And being rather vocal with them it we think they need some correction.

I didn't appreciate that DM quacking at us the entire dive while I was taking pictures (and I am glad my wife gave up on split fins as it is easier for her to keep up).

Mike

 

[NudeDiver]

Maybe I'm just a dumbass - I know some people on here think I am.....but even so, I just really don't want much of ANYTHING from a DM. I just want an adequate dive briefing and for the boat to come get me at the surface - if necessary.

I don't want a DM to move my gear, set up my gear, take down my gear, rinse my gear - or do much of anything else with my gear unless perhaps I am unconscious or in some sort of distress or need someone to pass my fins or camera up to (or have them passed down to me).

I don't want a DM to hold my hand, lead a dive, guide my way, "find" creatures for me, or be anywhere near me when I am underwater.

I certainly don't believe a DM is responsible for my safety, nor will I depend on him/her to be responsible for my safety. I certainly am not going to follow a DM into any situation that makes me feel uncomfortable. While I don't think "flipping off" a DM is really necessary under such circumstances, I've got no compunction about shaking my head "no". Anyone who fails to do so when necessary has no one else to blame for what happens to them.

 

[Web Monkey]

While I don't think "flipping off" a DM is really necessary under such circumstances, I've got no compunction about shaking my head "no". Anyone who fails to do so when necessary has no one else to blame for what happens to them.

Actually it was appropriate. He significantly violated the dive plan (his dive plan!) and completely ignored repeated warnings that a brand new diver was LOA and soon to be OOA.

My only regret is that I didn't flip him off and ascend with my buddy earlier.

Terry