Are resort DM's really that reckless?

[Zieg]

First of all....WHAT???

Okay, I understand the confusion. I believe what I was trying to say is that it would be nice to remind the divers that ultimately it IS up to each diver to look after themselves. Not to totally put all their trust in the DM. I'm not saying to distrust the DM, but to think, ask questions, think, decide if the dive is something they want to do, think, be responsible, and oh yeah, think. Don't blindly follow the DM.

Not all DM's are created the same.

Posted, then saw Seaducer's post.

Yeah, what Seaducer said.

 

[ScubaSteve]

Okay, I understand the confusion. I believe what I was trying to say is that it would be nice to remind the divers that ultimately it IS up to each diver to look after themselves. Not to totally put all their trust in the DM. I'm not saying to distrust the DM, but to think, ask questions, think, decide if the dive is something they want to do, think, be responsible, and oh yeah, think. Don't blindly follow the DM.

Not all DM's are created the same.

I agree with this. Neither party is wholly responsible. Neither party is not responsible and Both parties are responsible.

Not all DM's are created the same....True.
Not all divers are created the same....True

 

[String]

I'm not saying he's incapable of doing it, but from 100 feet, a solo ascent is far from the ideal situation.

Its a situation that should be well within the limits of any diver that is qualified to dive. If it isn't they shouldn't be diving,

What if you have an emergency situation where you need your buddies octo and: well your budies with the rest of your group.

Carry a redundant air source if you think the chances of 2 catastrophic failures are going to happen within 2 minutes of each other. You're also assuming a group diving buddy will be near enough or competent enough to actually donate air. Relying on others is never a good thing.

When you come up on a boat dive, I'd prefer to be with others to attract the attention of the boat (and hopefully come up where the boat is expecting you).

Send your delayed SMB up so the boat can find you. If you aren't carrying one, why not?

Although the case one member brought up about a week ago where divemasters were encouraging him to go on a dive to 80 feet I still take issue with. It's one thing to not care if you're taking unqualified divers with you, it's quite another to start trying to convince them that it's a good idea!

Qualification is NOT a rule - its purely a guideline. And again, unless they're being physically dragged there they have a choice in the matter both before starting the dive and at any point on the dive.

 

[String]

We have been to places that required you to dive with a DM and stay with them.

We were new OW divers and were up front about that.

String, does that change the situation any in your mind?

Mike

No. You were qualified divers so therefore are responsible for your own safety. If you'd paid extra for a divemaster or instructor specifically to look after you then i'd agree. If you didnt then you are simply following an underwater tour guide and its not his job to look after you.

 

[Coldwater_Canuck]

No, the dive in the Blue Hole is to 130 feet, where the formations are. There is no law prohibiting an OW diver of any experience level from making that dive, so it is up to the individual to dive, or not to dive, not the DM.

In this situation, wouldn't it be easy enough for the resort to just say "dive will be to 130 feet, we recommend you are deep water certified" or something. Then if someone signs up they can't say "I only want to dive to 60 feet". If they sign up for a 130 foot dive and don't want to do it: they can sit on the boat and not get a refund. But I don't see what reason the resort can't just specify this. All the dive trips I see around Seattle clearly specify the training and experience they want. Even if the resorts don't want to require any certification, at least be clear ahead of time.

( I have posted the same story on SB about a year ago )

This guy I know gets THE job most of us would really appreciate : DM at a Caribbean resort.

After just six months, I hear he`s back in town !!!

The story was; one day he went to his superior at the dive center because he was concerned about having non-certified divers, or taking divers beyond their qualification. He was also concerned on the fact that this was causing too many uncontrolled ascents and OOA situations, and that sooner or later something bad would happen.

His superior replied that he was getting paid to take people on vacation diving, and if the situation displeased him, he should be looking for another job.

The next week, he was back in town.

Interesting, it also makes me think I may have been a little too harsh originally on the divemasters themselves. In reality it's probably pressure from the resorts who want to ensure as many people dive and see the coolest places as possible: regardless of if they're qualified. or if it's very safe. From a financial standpoint, this probably makes sense (at least in other countries where they won't have millions in lawsuits on their hands when something happens).

 

[seaducer]

In this situation, wouldn't it be easy enough for the resort to just say "dive will be to 130 feet, we recommend you are deep water certified" or something.

I can't speak for all of them, but AFAIK they do. FWIW also, on all the boats I have been on, the depth and any other special circumstances have been discussed before booking the boat.

 

[Coldwater_Canuck]

Its a situation that should be well within the limits of any diver that is qualified to dive. If it isn't they shouldn't be diving,

Are solo ascents considered an everyday thing? Considering in OW we only ever ascended with a buddy, I assumed a solo ascent would only be a true emergency, but you're making it sound like it's something we should think nothing of?

Carry a redundant air source if you think the chances of 2 catastrophic failures are going to happen within 2 minutes of each other. You're also assuming a group diving buddy will be near enough or competent enough to actually donate air. Relying on others is never a good thing.

Send your delayed SMB up so the boat can find you. If you aren't carrying one, why not?

People fresh out of open water classes, and that's generally who we're talking about here, are often still renting gear. I don't know what resorts offer, but so far in Seattle I have failed to find anywhere that rents ponies and if you're rental gear doesn't come with a SMB, most people probably aren't going to think to buy one. I am now looking to buy my own gear and will have both of those things, but fresh out of an open water course I used what the dive shop gave me, and that never included so much as an option for a pony.

Qualification is NOT a rule - its purely a guideline. And again, unless they're being physically dragged there they have a choice in the matter both before starting the dive and at any point on the dive.

But why even have these guidelines if the people in charge of new divers are just going to argue against it? I don't know if these particular divemasters were certified by the agencies with the 60 foot limit or not, but when a diver comes up to you and says he isn't comfortable diving to 80 feet since he's only certified to 60, is it not at the very least a bit unprofessional to start trying to convince them otherwise.

 

[mheaster]

Well, I am the 'resort divemaster' and one thing that everyone needs to keep in mind is that there is a difference between my role in training and with certified divers. As an instructor or as a certified assistant helping another instructor I am responsible for the divers under my control. With certified divers my basic responsibilities are to give site briefing, a suggested dive briefing (the dive I'm planning to do) and remember where the boat is. That's it. I'm not here to nanny people into doing only dives above 60' unless they have an AOW card. I'm not going to restrict a diver from going TO 60' if they've never been below 25' for 20 minutes a few times in a quarry last year.

Once you become certified, it becomes your responsibility to communicate to the shop or divemaster or both your level or training, your prior experience and your comfort level and let them help you get the best experience you can. I can't do anything about it if I have 10 divers on the boat headed to a wreck in 90' only to have someone approach me to tell me they were certified in the Florida Keys 3 years ago and haven't dove since (yes, that really happened). What am I to do then? I can't turn the boat around, I have divers looking to do that dive. I can suggest that the diver not do the dive, but do I now owe a refund? Can I tether that diver to me and do the dive. Yeah, I probably can but I don't really want to.

Although the idea of structuring the dive to the least experienced and least comfortable is a fine idea in concept, it's just not always that easy to do in real life. At some point I'm going to tick off the experienced diver who has to do the shallow dive with the n00b or the new diver is going to get flustered because the dive is more advanced than he/she was expecting.

Rachel

So then what is the purpose of having dive masters? Based on what you're saying, shouldn't we just drop the dive master certification? On a boat, if they aren't responsible for safety at all, there really is no point. For guiding groups, if the leader has no responsibility we are just as well off giving the job to someone with their OW certification who knows the area.

Sorry, I don't mean to sound too sarcastic here, it's just I don't really understand what you're saying. If Divemaster's don't have any responsibility for their divers (apparantly 0% if the divers take 100%), then what on earth is the point of PADI and other agencies having a Divemaster course and rating?

Now I'm certainly not one to say "blame the divemaster for everything". If people are idiots while under his supervision, there may not be a whole lot he can do. But we're talking about people leading and encouraging unqualified divers into dangerous situation.

Did you read Wreckchick's message? I thought she did a GREAT job of explaining the dual-role of a Divemaster (I am PADI so my remarks are from the direction I am familiar with):

A DM has a MAJOR role of Safety during a training evolution (helping with students) and it becomes more of a Service Delivery role when assisting Certified Divers (providing a Dive Site briefing, leading a tour (ensuring you do not destroy their Dive Environment, also read as their source of livelihood) and assisting with entry/exits etc.

Granted during one of these dives a DM should quickly come to another diver's aid in a time of need (IF this rescue can be performed in a safe manner) but then again any/every other diver should also behave this way.

If newly certified divers want/need/desire a DM (or a Dive Site/Plan) to specifically be dedicated to them (vs. entire boat group) then usually many OPS will provide an additional dedicated DM at an additional fee of course.

There is no reason to believe that an entire Dive Operation would deny a majority a more challenging dive because a minority of divers want/need/are not able to comfortably or safely make the same dive. New Divers need to develop experience and should be offered the opportunity to make fun dives in their ability/comfort range but these divers also have a responsibility to book/ensure what they are booking /paying for.

Just my 20psi worth!

 

[I Dive]

I don't know what resorts offer, but so far in Seattle I have failed to find anywhere that rents ponies and if you're rental gear doesn't come with a SMB, most people probably aren't going to think to buy one. I am now looking to buy my own gear and will have both of those things,

Question to anyone who uses a Pony: Is it a good idea for a new diver to just run out and buy one or is there some sort of training they should seek out first? I can't imagine they are overly complicated but it is a new set of gear that I would think at least some skills should be practiced with before using. Maybe I'm wrong, I honestly don't know much more about them than what they are...

 

[seaducer]

Question to anyone who uses a Pony: Is it a good idea for a new diver to just run out and buy one or is there some sort of training they should seek out first? I can't imagine they are overly complicated but it is a new set of gear that I would think at least some skills should be practiced with before using. Maybe I'm wrong, I honestly don't know much more about them than what they are...

There is no class or anything but there are some choices to make such as size and mounting options and whether or not to replace your octo, to name a few (search for pony bottles to find lots of threads debating this). I would wait a little before making a puchase to:
A- make sure you actually want one.
B- make sure you are comfortable enough with your trim adn bouyancy to add something new and add to those challenges.

yes, once you get it and decide how to dive with it, you should practice deploying the regulator and breathing off it. This is the same with all gear, safety or otherwise, make sure you practice with it.