Are resort DM's really that reckless?

[Web Monkey]

Thanks Terry. That sheds some light on a previously dark corner. It also points out just how good some people are at "following their training". Maybe their DM training was purchased off the internet or the back of a pack of matches.

PADI might be different. We need a PADI DM (or even better a DM instructor) to actually dig out his books and look for the relevant content.

Terry

 

[J.R.]

I am all for the diver accepting responsibility. At no point have I ever absolved the diver of any responsibility. I just cannot tolerate the DM refusing to accept any? Like it or not, people expect a certain level of professionalism and competence from a DM.

I'm not saying that there aren't things a DM isn't responsible for... but those decisons occur more at a group level than at an individual level. I may abort an entire dive because of sea conditions... (or ice)... and I may refuse to dive with a specific diver for a variety of reasons... but I can't call a dive FOR you...

Only the individual knows what they think they know.

That should be engraved in stone and put up over the front door of every dive shop...

 

[ScubaSteve]

I'm not saying that there aren't things a DM isn't responsible for... but those decisons occur more at a group level than at an individual level. I may abort an entire dive because of sea conditions...

But why would you call a dive for sea conditions if I have not told you that I am uncomfortable with the conditions? I personally think that it is just as negligent or irresponsible to lead a group of open water students (those that choose to follow that is) into a cave (I am not saying you would do this but it was an actual example given earlier) as it is to have them enter "angry seas". The difference is, you stand a better chance of surviving on the surface if something goes wrong than you do in a cave if something goes wrong (irrespective of certification).

 

[J.R.]

But why would you call a dive for sea conditions if I have not told you that I am uncomfortable with the conditions?

Because I might deem the sea conditions unsafe to dive for the group as whole (or me in particularly) and not necessarily because of you specifically???

 

[ScubaSteve]

Because I might deem the sea conditions unsafe to dive for the group as whole (or me in particularly) and not necessarily because of you specifically???

And carrying on with the cave example, that dive would have been planned that way because the DM was "qualified" to do it and no specifically any of the divers that were there to follow them on a paid dive? So what this logic says is that a DM just gets paid to plan a dive around their own wants and ccomfort and forget about those who are paying to go on the dive. I know not all DMs are like that and that I really hope some people on here are just arguing their point so they do not "lose", but if this is what a DM has the right to do, what an agency failure it represents.

 

[seaducer]

So if the one thing I do have (training) isn't worth listening to, how is a new diver supposed to know what is safe and what isn't? The impression I get from your posts is:
- the training is wrong
- the divemaster is only their to listen to your commands and not to think about safetyh; and
- you need to know when it's unsafe.

These three points just don't add up to me.

I can't speak for what the poster meant, but i can talk a bit about this broadly. As a new diver, it is prudent for you to stick to the training you recieved and the limits recommended by the various agencies (I think they all state 60 feet) until you are ready to advance beyond them. This means one of the extra efforts you should put into picking your vacation should be dives that fall within the limits of your training and ability. it would be silly for me to book a trip on a boat heading for the Doria when my training and experience stop at the Stolt Degali, for example. For a Caribbean bound diver, someplace like Bonaire is a better choice than, say, Cozumel, perhaps. This is part of your responsibility. If you pick a destination where the most popular dives exceed your ability, you can't blame the DM, the dive operation, or ask/expect them to change the itinerary for you.

And a lot of this thread was people unexpectedly finding themselves in these situations, which says to me the briefings didn't work.

I can't tell you how many times I have been the only one to turn around when the DM asks for attention. Most people tend to ignore the DM until they yell. Still many people continue to kit up during a briefing and pay no attention to the DM. The briefings do work, for those of us who pay attention.

yes, there are some bad DM's out there, but they are few IME. I am talking averages here.

 

[LowVizWiz]

PADI might be different. We need a PADI DM (or even better a DM instructor) to actually dig out his books and look for the relevant content.

Terry

This is straight from the PADI Instructor Manual Dive Master Course - Supervising General Diving Activities

d. Responsible behavior a divemaster can encourage responsible behavior in divers. The divemaster is alert for the appropriate behavior or lack of, and tries to encourage it, but this doesn't imply that the divemaster is responsible for the behavior of trained and certified divers. This would be neither realistic nor appropriate.

There's a lot more in this section, but it would be impractical to post.
I hope new divers reading this don't feel like DM's out there or in this thread do not care about them! I personally do, as well as most of the people I know who do this!
However, you need to realize that no one can take care of you better than yourself.

Wiz

 

[J.R.]

So what this logic says is that a DM just gets paid to plan a dive around their own wants and comfort and forget about those who are paying to go on the dive.

Umm... not sure how you arrived there... that's not at all what I said... nor is it what was implied or ment... and I *think* you knew that...

BTW... the other difference in your original scenerio is that that a *cave* can be avoided by choice once a dive begins... sea conditions can not...

 

[funkcanna]

So what about non-certified divers at a resort being led into a swim through by the DM?

This was my first ever experience under the water. I followed him, and why should I not? I had had no training at all and did not know anything about risks under water. I was only told not to hold my breath and that was it. The DM was god at this stage and I was 16 years old.

 

[ScubaSteve]

Umm... not sure how you arrived there... that's not at all what I said... nor is it what was implied or ment... and I *think* you knew that...

BTW... the other difference in your original scenerio is that that a *cave* can be avoided by choice once a dive begins... sea conditions can not...

Like I said in a post...I do not believe that you (or most on here) would act the way that is being described. This thread (the OP) was brought up because of a few bad DM's that many are defending saying they did absolutely nothing wrong and that they carry absolutely zero responsibility for the divers that they have been contracted to take out.

If a DM will call a dive for their own concern and not the OW divers and yet will lead a group of OW divers into a cave environment, then I believe they are not a DM....they are just getting paid to dive for themselves and nobody else and are a hazard to those around them. Like it or not, people put trust into a DM when they obviously should put none (in some cases the DM can be trusted but not all apparently).

If a DM will call a dive on the surface for the concern for safety of the other OW divers yet will lead the same group into a cave....IMO they are a hypocrite and are a hazard to those around them.

If a DM will call a dive on the surface out of the concern for the OW divers (and maybe even themselves included) AND would never lead a group of OW divers into a cave (even if none go in), then they are a good and trustworthy DM and deserve a big fat tip. The rest deserve to lose their job IMO.

Finally, if a DM believes that every diver out there accepts (or believes) that the DM holds zero responsibility for their safety then that DM is delusional. I believe (no hard data to support) that if every diver were to be polled, the majority would say that they believe the DM holds some responsibility for their safety on your typical DM lead dive. This is not saying that most would not ALSO accept responsibility. I think most would say it is shared....but maybe I am wrong.

Again, I am all for sharing the responsibility but if the reality is that the DM claims no responsibility for a diver's well being at all, then they are more dangerous than anything because the diver likely sees it differently. And I have NEVER had a DM tell me on any DM led dive that they accept zero responsibility for my safety. I suppose a waiver says that but if I knew that the DM actually believed they had no responsibility for the safety of the divers, I would never follow them (I would not want to put myself in a potentially dangerous situation). I would dive on my own (with a buddy or solo). I am lucky enough to trust my own training and experience but not all diver can say that (as shown on SB all the time).