Are hydros really necessary?

[Dr. Lecter]

Read cited letter again. A cylinder may not be filled unless it conforms with the HMR. By cylinder I mean any cylinder that was made by an approved manufacturer - these are the DOT markings. Only these cylinders are allowed to have DOT markings on them.

And again, it does not have to be a part of interstate commerce or transportation. It is still illegal. Like the letter says, whether or NOT it is being offered for transportation in commerce. NOT means you don't have to be transporting it for the regulations to apply.

NO cylinder may be filled if it does not have a current hydrostatic test from an authorized hydrostatic tester licensed under PHMSA with a valid Retester Identification Number (RIN).

---------- Post added October 16th, 2014 at 11:21 PM ----------



Your argument is moot. Does the HMR apply to that personal cylinder with personal transportation to/from the dive shop?

The DOT does have authority over him. He is driving around with an article of 'hazardous material' that was marked at it last date of hydrotest to certify it CONFORMED WITH THE HMR. Therefore, the cylinder is subject to the HRM whether or not it is being transported in commerce.

You cannot fill an out of hydro cylinder, thus it will not be transported as a hazardous material. It cannot be transported full because it was marked at one point or another to certify that it complied with the HMR. In other words, that cylinder is OK for 5 years. When that 5 years is up, the cylinder (that was marked to conform with HMR and MUST be maintained accordingly) does not conform with the HMR and is illegal.

Citation required. Quote something, anything. If you actually read the complete set of USC sections from which the DOT's regulatory authority in this area derive (you can start with 49 USC 5101, but 5103(b) might help straighten your head out), you'll see there's no general DOT authority that would provide the general power you're claiming they have.

 

[BRT]

That is not the law BRT. If your tank is out of hydro, you can transport an empty cylinder to be tested. The above link states that the law applies to private parties, with the exception of the PRE-Transportation law.

In the letter of interpretation there is a reference to shipping (via UPS for example). In this case, you ARE breaking the law if you offer a cylinder for transportation if it does not have a current hydrotest. Keep in mind the hydro is good thru the month it was done. If you find yourself in this situation, don't ship a full cylinder. (Note that the cylinder is being shipped for hydrostatic testing). In the last question (Q6), the letter states that a cylinder with pressure below 40 psi is not subject to the HMR during shipping.

You said that you think 'he is full of it'. I can assure you he is not the only one that reviewed that letter. The Chief Enforcement Officer of DOT probably got a copy of the letter before he was able to reply. Regardless of your opinion, DOT still applies exactly as the letter of interpretation states. An opinion won't help anyone in court if there is an incident and "i didn't know that" won't save you from a fine.

DOT's letter are just as fun for me to read as they are for you. There are a lot of boring, overly stated regulations but that is part of what keep the compressed gas industry safe. The reason there are 'just a few' fatalities is because of the shops being sticklers for regulations. Some aren't but they're just playing the odds. As the age of cylinders in our country increases, so does the risk of accidents.

What you said was law was that "Any cylinder marked to certify that it conforms with the HMR must be maintained in accordance with applicable specification requirements whether or not it is transported in commerce at any particular time."

It doesn't say anything about it being full, empty or a chime. It is ANY cylinder so marked. Nonsense.

---------- Post added October 16th, 2014 at 10:27 PM ----------

1) For a cylinder to be marked to indicate manufacture in accordance with the HMR

Any DOT stamp you see on your cylinder (DOT 3AL-3000) is a stamp that manufactures are allowed indicating the cylinder is a DOT certified cylinder made of Aluminum with a service pressure of 3000 psi. *The REE (for example REE 78) indicates that the cylinder cannot have an elastic expanision of more than 78 ml during hydrostatic testing or it is rejected. REE stands for Rejection Elastic Expansion. This is used to determine if your tank can get the coveted + marking

2) Response to '...whether or not it is being used to transport HAZARDOUS materials in commerce. This means the cylinder must be retested and maintained if it contains compressed gases, whether or not it is being transported. Compressed gases are HAZARDOUS materials according to DOT and PHMSA (see Title 49 Code of Federal Regulations - Parts 180.1 to 180.201 for this topic). So any SCUBA, SCBA, CO2, Spare Air, etc cylinders are subject to DOT, PHMSA, and the HMR.

3) A depressurized cylinder

She states that a depressurized cylinder is NOT a "hazardous material", and is NOT "subject to the HMR". The limit as she states is 40 psi. This is because it is not CONTAINING any compressed gases - see hazardous material (i.e., air, Nitrogen, CO2). The moment it is going to be used as a vessel of hazardous material transportation, like when any SCUBA tank is filled, it is subject to the HMR. That is why NO tank out of hydro can legally be filled in the U.S.

3) Court & Your 'Garage' Cylinder

Yes, your cylinder MUST be retested. It is a compressed gas vessel and is subject to many, many regulations. As I've seen before on these forums, only "a handful of unlucky people" have died from tank explosions. When remove the amount of people that do follow industry standards, the percentage gets much bigger.

As for court, if you're willing to go up against the Department of Transportation to keep an explosive container in your garage - one that could easily destroy it, assuming your garage can't comfortably fit an airplane - then be my guest. Just know the manufacturer of said tank will not come to your aid. In fact, they will probably be at the court - telling the judge how the tank should have been maintained.

---------- Post added October 16th, 2014 at 10:54 PM ----------



Pre-transportation means you don't need placarding and shipping within an outside package. (i.e. box, crate, etc). We weren't talking about placarding because we're talking about personal use. Take a few more seconds to read cited response letter.

We're talking about maintaining the cylinder - hydrostatic testing - and that is REQUIRED. Unless you want to make the same old argument, well what if its not beind used? Yes, assuming there is less than 40 PSI in the cylinder, as far as PHMSA and DOT are concerned it is a windchime. Just like a condemned cylinder.

---------- Post added October 16th, 2014 at 10:56 PM ----------



Tractor trailer tires are not DOT specification cylinders so the regulations we're talking about don't apply.

"By law (49 CFR), any compressed gas that has a pressure of 40 PSI or higher is considered Hazardous Materials."

That would include semi tires.

 

[duckbill]

As for court, if you're willing to go up against the Department of Transportation to keep an explosive container in your garage.

Besides not "getting" any of the points I was making, you certainly don't have a clue as to the jurisdiction of the U.S. DOT. U.S. DOT means "United States (Federal) Department of Transportation". My garage is neither on Federal property, nor mobile. The DOT has NO authority regarding my garage or anything therein.

 

[Dr. Lecter]

Also, let's get back to the text that supports what the DOT is claiming about HMR-marked cylinders having to be "maintained" regardless of use in interstate commerce. If you read that part of the DOT response in "A1." of the 7/1/2005 DOT response letter, as I commented, you see they say the cylinders have to be maintained but don't say doing so is mandatory as to the person asking the question about private transportation for personal use. Here's why:

"The regulations...apply to a person who (iii)designs, manufactures, fabricates, inspects, marks, maintains, reconditions, repairs, or tests a package, container, or packaging component that is represented, marked, certified, or sold as qualified for use in transporting hazardous material in commerce;" 49 USC 5103(b)(1)(A).

Read in context, you see that DOT is trying to expand their apparent authority by misconstruing the language of the relevant law. In their letter, they use "maintained" to mean that if you own it--even as Joe Blow driving to/from a fill--you have a legal obligation to do something, in this case keep it hydrotested. But that's not what "maintains" means here; instead, "maintains" is one of several actions/jobs that, if you do them, then you've engaged in behavior regulated by the DOT. Mere ownership and transport (not in commerce) is insufficient. Someone who is repairing or maintaining SCUBA tanks is covered by this; someone who simply has one in their possession is not.

Again, playing lawyer without going to law school or at least spending the preceding evening at a Holiday Inn...not advisable.

 

[redacted]

It seems to me that it does not matter if the truth is that DOT has no authority over personal Scuba tanks. You still have to deal with the fact that most gas providers require current hydro (and VIS) to fill your tanks. Even when you fill your own, I have run into dive ops that enforce the same requirement just to bring your personal tanks on board. (But I doubt if they are even checking Spare Airs.)

 

[Dr. Lecter]

Hydros and vis are a very good idea, both in terms of being cheap insurance against rare but catastrophic failures and in terms of reducing hassle of fills/use of personal tanks on commercial ops. I just don't want anyone who might have skipped 12th grade civics getting confused about the scope and nature of federal agencies' authority over the general public.

 

[rjack321]

I think its ridiculous that you all are parsing the CFRs in this way trying to determine if the USDOT has "jurisdiction".

Guess what, if one of the tanks on the boat explodes a DOT inspection team will show up to examine the pieces. They will take them back with them and try to determine why it exploded pretty much no matter what you claim about it not being their "jurisdiction" and no matter how many CFRs you quote. Also attending will be the local fire marshal, OSHA (since FL is not state authorized), the Coast Guard, and the insurance adjustor (possibly several). Saying the tanks the shop filled, and somehow transported to the boat (or filled on the boat) are merely a private matter despite the money changing hands and having a business license for that purpose is ridiculous. Claiming the blood all over the deck from the wounded passengers or crew is outside their jurisdiction is not going to fly. No dive shop is going to survive the probing once they see a slew of tanks have not been maintained to industry standards - standards which are tank in open water classes... Once all that is done, a few lawyers are likely to show up and finish off whatever is left.

In my opinion the OP was a fool for staying on the boat. If they are so lackadaisical about hydros how would you trust the air inside? Was the compressor oil a used motor oil they recycled or the proper grade? How about the filters? CO anyone? How about the life jackets or the required life rafts? I wonder if anyone has examined or serviced those in the past 8 or 10 years?

Letting this shop/boat slide and not naming names is facilitating their cost and corner cutting. I'm sure they were cheap (what a deal!) but not outing them just let's someone else travel across the country and be in a position to either walk off the boat or put up with this BS because they can't find another properly outfitted charter on short notice. The reputable businesses have to compete against the boats and shops that pull this BS and its just not fair to them to remain silent.

Of course the OP could be completely fabricating the whole story, but knowing FL I wouldn't be at all surprised if it were true.

 

[Dr. Lecter]

I know reading can be difficult, but nobody's saying an LDS transporting tanks is somehow exempt or that a business would somehow not be sued into oblivion if their unhydroed tanks injured or killed someone; they're not and no business wouldn't be.

But when some fool starts informing the world that there's a law against private persons driving around on public roads with filled, unhydroed tanks for non-commercial reasons...it makes me grouchy.

 

[Pro Dive Davao]

Yes I think Tanks should be inspected annually and tested every 5 years

But I also think that the whole risk of exploding cylinders is blown out of all proportion. I have tried and tried to find stats on this and failed. A search on the internet will show some photos but by heaven what a state the cylinder was in. Also there are a few news stories about exploding tanks but there is never a follow up story. I treat my tanks with respect but is that not what a burst disc is for to stop exposions??

Has anyone here got FIRST hand knowledge of an incident and not a handed down story

 

[swimmer_spe]

A diving tank is a pressure vessel.
A propane tank is a pressure vessel.
A oxy acetylene tank are pressure vessels.
A boiler is a pressure vessel.

The regulations are for pressure vessels. The fact that we use one is why they have to be inspected.