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Are Finns bad divers? Thread split

Discussion in 'Scandinavia' started by BurhanMuntasser, Jan 7, 2018.

  1. Rechno

    Rechno Nassau Grouper

    # of Dives: 200 - 499
    Location: Germany
    119
    98
    28
    Out of which 2 were within the same group of divers (AFAIK).
    I was just wondering if there was more statistical data available to those that made the claim.
     
  2. Storker

    Storker Divemaster

    # of Dives: 100 - 199
    Location: close to a Hell which occasionally freezes over
    11,954
    8,330
    113
    More likely 3 (if you were talking about the number of fatalities. If you were talking about the number of accidents, it 2, of course). The person who perished in France seemed to be in the same group as the two that died in the Norwegian cave. Diver dead in Font Estramar, France
     
  3. taimen

    taimen Manta Ray

    # of Dives: 100 - 199
    Location: Europe
    653
    300
    63
    Approximately 40000 divers in Finland (population 5.495 million).

    Unofficial average 2.5 lethal diving accidents / year. Source and copyright "sukellus.info / Matti Anttila"
    I doubt there is any statistically significant difference to other diver nationalities.

    Fatalities per year during last 20 years (includes all finnish diver fatalities, accidents may be both in Finland or abroad)

    upload_2018-1-12_11-20-17.png

    Source and copyright "sukellus.info / Matti Anttila"
     
    FinnMom and undrwater like this.
  4. Rechno

    Rechno Nassau Grouper

    # of Dives: 200 - 499
    Location: Germany
    119
    98
    28
    Thanx, and now we would have to adjust these numbers and take out medical issues. Except if someone wants to prove that Finns have a certain physiology that makes them more prone for accidents......
     
    FinnMom likes this.
  5. Storker

    Storker Divemaster

    # of Dives: 100 - 199
    Location: close to a Hell which occasionally freezes over
    11,954
    8,330
    113
    I did a quick mental comparison of your numbers with the number of fatalities I've read about in the media here in Norway, I'd say that we have very similar fatality numbers. In fact, they are - for all practical purposes - equal¹. And we have very similar population numbers. Any differences will only be caused by statistical noise, which will have a disproportionately large effect when we're talking about less than ten fatalities per year on average.

    ¹ No p-value calculations, no calculation of confidence intervals, sorry. It isn't worth the effort, really.
     
    FinnMom likes this.
  6. Freewillow

    Freewillow Divemaster

    # of Dives: 500 - 999
    Location: Brussels
    1,661
    410
    83
    This whole thread carries a huge amount of B.S. :gas:. Hard to understand all these "would be " statisticians :stirpot:
     
    FinnMom likes this.
  7. BurhanMuntasser

    BurhanMuntasser Dive Charter

    # of Dives: I'm a Fish!
    Location: Nomad
    5,486
    1,742
    113
    Do you want more deaths/statistics for you to have a big enough sample space to start thinking that there may be an issue here that warrants a solution/action?? Do you think that in general there are enough deaths in any given country, even in the US, to actually make any conclusions statistically valid? Do 100 deaths in one year make it a statistically valid sample space?? The truth is that we don't have enough samples for diver deaths in strict sense of the word as is expected in other disciplines.

    The whole line of questioning here wasn't and isn't about passing wholesale judgement or making a good/bad evaluation of Finnish divers. It is more about trying to understand why a specific group of divers from a specific country/culture have had more than their share of fatalities when compared to other countries that are geographically right next to them. Some people argue that Finnish divers are more daring, more aggressive, more stubborn and more cavalier in their diving than the others around them and hence the higher number of deaths in their ranks. Some may argue that there has been a trend among Finnish divers, who come from a highly educated culture with very high living standards, to take up riskier type of diving, cave/mine, and train with the Finnish instructors creating overconfident divers who are eager to engage in riskier activities that they maybe getting in something way above their heads and ultimately getting in trouble paying for it with their lives. Could this culture with its high levels of education and standards of living causing these people to have a much higher and false sense of abilities that don't exist?

    What I don't understand here why people are objecting to this line of questioning and twisting what is being said and making it appear as an attack on the country, the people and the culture of Finland. Stop this nonsense please.


    P.S. For the record, I wasn't the one who created the thread or the one that gave it the name/title it has now. This was done by our most lovely, delightful and powerful moderator, fast fingers Marge the beautiful!!
     
  8. taimen

    taimen Manta Ray

    # of Dives: 100 - 199
    Location: Europe
    653
    300
    63
    But have they has "more than their share"? No one seems to be able to confirm that there actually are more finnish fatalities than from countries geographically right next to them.
    There have been some accidents with a lot of publicity, nothing else.
    I don't understand how and why you want to make assumptions drawn from educational system, living standards, culture etc. when the number of fatalities simply does not indicate that finnish divers are overconfident, risk enganging or trained differently than others.
     
    FinnMom likes this.
  9. Storker

    Storker Divemaster

    # of Dives: 100 - 199
    Location: close to a Hell which occasionally freezes over
    11,954
    8,330
    113
    That's quite different from the original claim, which was about Finnish divers in general. There will always be subgroups with a very high risk acceptance, which very often - and not surprisingly - translates to higher fatality numbers.

    That the particular subgroup we're discussing happens to be Finnish is most probably a coincidence. Regardless of national/cultural stereotypes.
     
    FinnMom and undrwater like this.
  10. Freewillow

    Freewillow Divemaster

    # of Dives: 500 - 999
    Location: Brussels
    1,661
    410
    83
    My dear Burhantassmaster. I do not know from which country you are. You are registered as Nomad in MAle ( Maldives ). Were are you from, being so certain about Finland and Lybia, I just wonder.

    One thing is for sure: to try to derive "national" conclusions from 2 or 3 occurences is bad science. :drunks:
     
    FinnMom likes this.

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