AOW for Experienced Divers: An Open Letter to PADI

[AfterDark]

I think it's all up to the trainer. I took a bunch of classes to get the SSI AOW card (actually ended up with Master Diver Card) while in Thailand. My motivation was twofold- one is that were I live, the boats simply will refuse to take you out to the sites without the card. It's not really their fault, after some idiots here killed themselves, the coroner made a number of recommendations. The people in charge of occupational safety then made these "recommendations" a requirement of all operators, which then meant they the operators had to follow these standards or face high fines and loss of insurance. So basically they are bound by law, although it's not an actual law per se.

Anyway, so I took the courses so I could do the dives, but ended up landing myself with a diving center with great instructors who went well above and beyond what the standard required. I had a ball, learnt some things, and don't regret it at all. Mind you, the prices in Thailand made it relatively cheap, but still... I could certainly see those classes being a complete waste of time for someone who has lots of dives under their belt and also end up in a cattle-class.

That's great but you didn't have a 1000+ dives like the OP.

I don't see this as a bash PADI thread. At least from my perspective. The OP just happened to deal with PADI. I'm sure if it had been another agency the letter would have been the same. My experience was with PADI but that was because the LDS I deal with is a PADI shop. It is the entire training system that I "bash". They seem to teach just enough to enable people to get in the water and dive as long as things go well. Things start going sideways and they are F'd. My very 1st OW dive (training) went sideways leaving my buddy and I to solve our problem unaided by an instructor or DM; because we were trained, really trained we made out fine.

 

[Lorenzoid]

. . .
Please explain how PADI makes more money one way or the other. It is the dive shop offering the certification process that gets the money. PADI only gets a few dollars for instructional materials and the C-card. It would get about the same amount of money either way.

Does PADI not have some incentive to help shops/instructors working under their logo make more money? I always figured they did, but I could be mistaken. If there is such an incentive, PADI wouldn't want to do something that potentially eats into a shop's revenue, like offering an economical "mossback" (I love that term) AOW alternative to a more expensive regular AOW course. In any event, creating a new cert/course that has a limited pool of potential students would involve overhead costs that I suspect PADI wouldn't want to incur. I think that's the bottom line. Why would PADI go to the expense of doing that? Altruism? They are a for-profit company, owned by a private equity firm if I recall.

 

[DevonDiver]

Please explain how PADI makes more money one way or the other. It is the dive shop offering the certification process that gets the money. PADI only gets a few dollars for instructional materials and the C-card. It would get about the same amount of money either way.

"A few dollars"...

Ah John.... you got me all tearing up and blubbering in sympathy for them...

Maybe those "few dollars" is why PADI presses so hard for volume sale...

 

[SailNaked]

Lets put the blame where it belongs before this thread goes to the pub.

Inusrance companies and lawyers!!!!

If the shop insurance companies were not worried about the lawyers they would not care if we were trained or not and would assume self preservation would take care of the specifics.

please do not claim that PADI or any organization is not training to your high standards and that we need a bypass for old timers in the same sentence. it is contradictory.

I get tired of people claiming that in their opinion Padi is not meeting their high standards. really? you are not that good and there are people better. you need a chest to pin your self proclaimed medal on.

We have a system to protect the insurance companies and I am happy with it because it affords me training I would never have gotten at a realtively cheap cost, if you have to get a card in one class to take another so be it. If some shop wants you to have a card to be on their boat then pay it or buy a boat.

OMG I have had too much coffee, please ignore the above rant (assuming you read to here lol).

 

[boulderjohn]

"A few dollars"...

Ah John.... you got me all tearing up and blubbering in sympathy for them...

Maybe those "few dollars" is why PADI presses so hard for volume sale...

I did not say PADI made no money from these. I said that the difference for PADI between a student paying for a full course and a student paying for an experienced diver course would not be much, so there is no financial incentive for them not to offer it. If they wanted to, they could make it so that they make exactly the same amount of money for either, to the penny.

The difference in cost is at the shop/instructor level. Shop around for PADI courses and you will find a variety of costs--the cost of certification to the student is a local thing, not a PADI decision.

 

[DevonDiver]

I did not say PADI made no money from these. I said that the difference for PADI between a student paying for a full course and a student paying for an experienced diver course would not be much, so there is no financial incentive for them not to offer it.

If PADI were to offer such a program, it'd involve a manual and PIC card, so yes, those cost elements would equate to what is currently paid for other courses.

What I gather the OP is asking for isn't "training" though - it is recognition of experience. Recognition via a plastic card that equates to a certification 'level'. As far as I know, no agency offers such recognition. It'd be hard to imagine creating such a course also - as 'experience' is so variable. It'd have to involve an assessment - so recognition of experience becomes recognition of competency. Running a comprehensive assessment program, encompassing both practical and theoretical competencies would most likely be as expensive, if not more so, than simply doing a training course in the first place.

 

[Peter Guy]

Sailnaked, in a vicious and unwarranted bigoted attack wrote

Lets put the blame where it belongs before this thread goes to the pub.

Inusrance companies and lawyers!!!!

OK, I get that you think lawyers are the root of all evil, but what the hell is an "Inusrance compan[y]?"

IF you really want to go to the root issue, one might well say "It is greed" as in, when someone is injured while diving (or more likely dead from an incident) the survivors want "someone to pay" for their loss. Even if the stated goal is "To make sure no one else gets killed by such bad behavior" the fact that survivors seek compensation (emotional and financial) is WHY there are insurance companies and lawyers.

We've all read of instances where a "professional" has done things that just make us scratch our head and say, "How could someone be that stupid." The desire by survivors to try to make sure such things don't happen again is why we need the insurance companies and the lawyers. And trying to determine just when it is right to sue and when it is egregious to sue, well, sorry, can't come up with any grand plan.

But, happy to say, insurance companies AND lawyers are both very beneficial to our well being -- except when they are not.

 

[drbill]

I couldn't agree more.

I started using SCUBA back in the winter of 1961-62 and spent my summers vacuuming the bottoms of deep diving wells using a Mark V helmet and later SCUBA gear. When I moved to Catalina in 1969 and discovered I needed to be certified to get air fills, I took Los Angeles County's outstanding "OW" course which basically covered "everything" in today's OW-AOW-Rescue series (minus the new information such as how to use BCDs, APGs, dive computers and tyhe like which either didn't exist or none of us could afford back then).

I never had any problem diving here in California as dive ops knew the reputation of the LAC program. Then I overcame my fear of flying and started taking international dive trips in 2001. PADI instructors in Thailand (including one from Los Angeles) had no clue what my LAC card meant and requested that I do "check out" dives. Then when I got to Cairns and the Great Barrier Reef, I encountered a PADI instructor who not only knew whgat the LAC certification program was like... he referred to my 1960s vintage card as a "museum piece." He offered to certify me AOW just for the cost of the training materials.

It is a shame that many (but not all) PADI instructors and DSMs are so clueless about the history of this activity and not more knowledgeable about other certification programs. I would like to see PADI give this information to both DMs and instructors who are supposed to assess the skills of other divers, including those from other countries with far more rigorous standards.

 

[guyharrisonphoto]

Or find an independent instructor that will listen to your knowledge and experience, evaluate your skills, then tailor an AOW class to you that will be worth something. And not put you in a group with a bunch of newbies that in all seriousness should not be out of the pool from their OW class. My advanced level classes have a base structure. But if you think you're good at say Nav forget the square and triangle. I'll give you a six leg course and require you to use compass, natural, and a line and reel. Deep? How about carry a stage, run a line at 100 ft, then an air share from 100 to the stages we dropped, deploy them, and finish as a multilevel with a total run time of around 50 minutes? No drop, see the colors go away, open a lock or write your name backwards and surface with a 20 minute dive. You just need to find an instructor with imagination and that does the dives outside of classes. SEI does have equivalency certs but they are mostly for military and those who had an old YMCA card and want to change it.

Jim, I would have happily paid for what you offer than the "standard" AOW course. Not only would it have challenged me, it would have given my wife a host of new skills.

---------- Post added May 30th, 2013 at 02:51 PM ----------

If PADI were to offer such a program, it'd involve a manual and PIC card, so yes, those cost elements would equate to what is currently paid for other courses.

What I gather the OP is asking for isn't "training" though - it is recognition of experience. Recognition via a plastic card that equates to a certification 'level'. As far as I know, no agency offers such recognition. It'd be hard to imagine creating such a course also - as 'experience' is so variable. It'd have to involve an assessment - so recognition of experience becomes recognition of competency. Running a comprehensive assessment program, encompassing both practical and theoretical competencies would most likely be as expensive, if not more so, than simply doing a training course in the first place.

Well, the AOW is one third "training" and two thirds "experience" (the 5 dives). What I suggested for PADI is that substantial documented "experience" can reduce the five dives to one where all the skills are demonstrated, coupled with satisfactory completion of the knowledge review.

If I "blame" PADI, it is for having training so good in the 1970s that you were trained well enought to accomplish dives far more "advanced" that what "AOW" certifies you for by today's standards. I have benefitted from that training for 35 years and parlayed it into very advanced experience, only to find out, now, that it is not "good enough" anymore and costs $$$ just to get the AOW card. I have suggested a way that PADI might work with divers like me to better direct my future training $$$ (would rather spend it on tech 40) while still making sure that I can demonstrate the knowledge and skills for AOW to an actual instructor, but giving appropriate weight to my experience.

---------- Post added May 30th, 2013 at 03:10 PM ----------

Looks like that may have been working for a while now at Harvard...

Honorary Degrees | Harvard University

Some honorary degree recipients

Dumpster, you always crack me up!! I always look forward to your posts.

Actually, you inspired me. I looked at Harvard's website and, yes, they offer scuba classes!

BoulderJohn, My letter is in the mail . . . . .

 

[Dr. Lecter]

Lets put the blame where it belongs before this thread goes to the pub.

Inusrance companies and lawyers!!!!

If the shop insurance companies were not worried about the lawyers they would not care if we were trained or not and would assume self preservation would take care of the specifics.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again: blame the twelve mouthbreathers in the jury box, as there's at least one lawyer on each side of any given case. Every time someone whines about the costs and restrictions imposed by the threat of litigation, I wonder who they think actually decides civil cases.