AOW for Experienced Divers: An Open Letter to PADI

[drrich2]

One cannot realistically assume that all people filing lawsuits have respectable levels of integrity.

Now, as to the 'It's the plaintiff's fault, not his lawyer,' well, by way of analogy I can shoot that idea down pretty well. Consider this:

Let's say someone wanted me killed and hired a hitman to do it. Yes, on some level I'd primary blame the person who took out the contract, but it'd also have a pretty serious grudge against the hitman.

Likewise, if someone sues me on grounds I deem unwarranted and a lawyer takes the case, I may well consider that lawyer a scumbag.

Richard.

P.S.: In the wake of a tragedy, even people who are normally decent sorts, confronted with shock, anger and helplessness, and a need to 'do something,' are susceptible for looking for a scapegoat, and if 'demanding justice' would coincidentally result in a large jury award or settlement, weeeeeeeell...human nature is what it is.

 

[boulderjohn]

Likewise, if someone sues me on grounds I deem unwarranted and a lawyer takes the case, I may well consider that lawyer a scumbag.

If the grounds are deemed unwarranted, in most cases they will not prevail, and the lawyer will get nothing. In most cases like this, the lawyer is only paid if they win the suit. If they sue and don't win, they have done a lot of work for nothing. If the case is that unwarranted, you can often countersue for court costs.

Years ago my son had his tooth knocked out during a school activity, and the school made a number of mistakes in dealing with it. To cut to the chase, if they had followed their own procedures for both supervision and first aid, the tooth would have been re-implanted and done fine. Because of the mistakes they made, the tooth died after being re-implanted. When he implanted it, the dentist said that there was a small chance it would live. We contacted the school to see about being reimbursed out of their insurance, especially since their failures were monumental. They checked with their attorneys, and then told us they were advised to tell us to wait exactly 6 months to see if the tooth lived, and then call back for reimbursement. Well, the tooth died. When we called back, they (with an implied laugh) told us that under the law, they could not be sued for this after 6 months have passed.

When we checked with attorneys, we found that they were right. No attorney would take our case because, even though the school was blatantly at fault, they were protected by the law. The case would not prevail, and so with no prospects for winning, there was no point in suing.

 

[Shasta_man]

Why a grudge against the hitman? He was just doing a job. If it were someone you knew who decided to take on the job as hitman to take you out, then certainly you can hold a grudge against them, but your beef is with the person hiring the hitman. That's what I try to explain every time. Same thing for the lawyer who sues you. The lawyer is just doing a job based on the situation you got yourself into. If the lawyer tried to frame you or misrepresent evidence (which they regularly do) then you have a specific beef, otherwise your beef is with the plantiff.

 

[DCBC]

Dear PADI.

I just wanted to point-out that there are other diver certification organizations in the World other than PADI. Some Agencies give Instructors much more latitude than PADI does. If you went to a Club Instructor (opposed to an LDS), you would likely be in a better position. I believe than an Instructor has to hold the line and ensure that the Standards are met before certification, but there's nothing in the CMAS or NAUI Standards (for example) that you have to pay for any program. There is only a certification fee for the registration of certifications with the Agency, as applicable.

Diving certification (in most countries) until the 80's, was primarily undertaken by Clubs. With the advent of the Recreational Diving Industry becoming more prevalent (profits), this swung to the LDS. Clubs still do exist; providing Instructors and Mentors. Instructors like myself teach in this setting free of charge (for the love of diving). Courses are often far more comprehensive and at no more cost (often less expensive).

You are not tied at the hip to PADI, or any other certification Agency. The tone of your letter suggests otherwise. Review your options; there usually is more than one...

 

[guyharrisonphoto]

Richard, while I appreciate your sentiment, you are not the one to decide whether a suit is unwarranted, as that is why we have a legal system. It seems to be not well known that well over 50% of personal injury cases that go to trial result in defense verdicts. I personally was on a jury that delivered a defense verdict in a very sad wrongful death lawsuit, but we all agreed that the plaintiff had done nothing wrong. Were we mouth-breathers? Well, perhaps the plaintiff thought so.

Also, your observation that the grieving, and perhaps destitute, family left behind might investigate their options makes my point very well. Don't blame the lawyers.

John, I assume that seeing a lawyer on time might have helped you out more than taking the word of the person who injured your son and had every incentive to screw you over. Would you agree? Richard, would that lawyer be a "scumbag" for taking John's case? After all, sports are dangerous and parents put kids in sports knowing the risk. Would John's claim be unwarranted?



DCBC, I appreciate your thoughts about other options, like I appreciated Jim Lapenta's suggestion that shopping around for instructors might have gotten us a more rewarding experience. However, as for being tied to PADI, it does seem to be by a good margin the most recognized certification agency and its AOW card carries weight pretty much everywhere, so I actually did not think about shopping around agencies.

 

[drrich2]

Shasta-man:

Why a grudge against the hitman? He was just doing a job.

So were many of the Nazis, but the Jews just don't seem to see it that way.

Boulderjohn & GuyHarrisonPhoto:

Did either of you ever hear the old, old song about a man named Tiger Man McCool who'd 'won' so many fights in his life that he was basically a half-reconstructed cripple, but since the other guy was always in worse shape, he guessed that made him 'the Winner?'

Talk to a Physician who just 'won' a lawsuit that drug on for years, sullied his reputation, required uncounted hours of preparation and other demands, grueling cross-examination on the witness stand, in many cases a lot of expenses & lost income from being tied up in the battle, a lot of stress & lost sleep, and as a result of having 'won' has finally basically been told 'Oh, well, you can go home now.'

So, Doc., you feeling like 'the Winner?' (You can find such situations on online forums catering to Physicians).

Richard, while I appreciate your sentiment, you are not the one to decide whether a suit is unwarranted, as that is why we have a legal system.

Yes, a legal system whose reputation has been so sullied by frivolous lawsuits and outrageous verdicts that its credibility has been shot, to some extent, and many people fear their lives and livelihoods coming under what it at least often perceived to be the capricious whims of it. Not reassuring.

Thinking of the woman who spilt hot coffee on herself and scored big. If it happened at home, too bad. Ah, but it was McDonald's coffee, a big corporation with deep pockets. And remember the States going after Big Tobacco & raking in enormous amounts of money, only a tiny fraction of which went to help smokers from what I've heard?

Richard, would that lawyer be a "scumbag" for taking John's case? After all, sports are dangerous and parents put kids in sports knowing the risk. Would John's claim be unwarranted?

From what he's told us, and given the credibility I associate with him from the very limited contact of reading his posts on this forum, no.

Ironically, it would've been in the school's interest to pay out of good will/public relations rather than legal obligation (and of course 'decency' and doing what's right are alternative motives). Now, they come across as selfish, manipulative, actually rather evil. I figure Boulderjohn can spread word of this injustice to other families, as can his son. Assuming the school has any kind of fund raising activities that benefit from a good name, the family can probably 'cost' them something simply by sullying the school administration's name. Just showing up at a school board meeting to bring it up & embarrass the board publicly could be worth some measure of satisfaction. You may not want to go that route and get your 'pound of flesh,' of course.

Richard.

 

[DCBC]

DCBC, I appreciate your thoughts about other options, like I appreciated Jim Lapenta's suggestion that shopping around for instructors might have gotten us a more rewarding experience. However, as for being tied to PADI, it does seem to be by a good margin the most recognized certification agency and its AOW card carries weight pretty much everywhere, so I actually did not think about shopping around agencies.

PADI is a respected organization and is recognized internationally, as are many other Agencies. The World Diving Federation (CMAS), NAUI, BSAC and RSTC members are just a few other examples.

I agree with Jim (which is usually the case) that an Independent or Club Instructor (from any Agency) would have been a better option for you with your experience. I point this out because you're not the only Diver I've spoken to that has seemed to be indoctrinated into the LDS/PADI sectarian point of view. If you only hear a message on a regular basis, and rarely (or never) expose yourself to alternatives, you're going to be far more likely to accept what you hear without thinking. That's good marketing on behalf of the Corporation, but it's not always in the best interests of the consumer.

 

[guyharrisonphoto]

Yes, it is a lesson learned for me about what I should have done to get the best thing, but my initial letter to PADI still stands as a request that the address divers like me. If they did, it might promote even more "brand loyalty" because, now, I for sure will be looking at other agencies for further training (really, I should have dropped the $$$ on GUE Fundamentals).

 

[RNR Eco Adventures]

The shops which said they would not take you past 60ft without the AOW are full of s$%#. Likely just trying to force you into an AOW course. I always gauge the level of diver on experience and cert level. Obviously a regularly diving OW diver with 100 dives is going to be a far better diver than an AOW with 9 dives, or a rescue diver with 13 dives.

That 60ft/18m thing is misunderstood by a lot of dm's and instructors. That is not a limit which the diver cannot descend below such as it is with, for example, PADI's "Scuba Diver" which cannot go below 40ft/12m even with a pro in tow. 60ft/18m is a guideline which the diver should follow when diving with another diver of equal experience and certification level. Put with a professional and the 60ft/18m guideline does not apply. Mind you that doesn't mean I as an instructor am going to take an OW diver to 130ft/40m straight away. Use your common sense.

 

[flots am]

The shops which said they would not take you past 60ft without the AOW are full of s$%#.

I'm not exactly sure why this is even an issue.

If you need anybody's permission for a dive, it's time to find another way to get to the dive site.

That said, people need to know their limitations. It's entirely possible to remove yourself from the gene pool by overestimating your abilities. But that's a choice for the individual, not the dive op.

flots