Aow=bs

[MXGratefulDiver]

Except, that is the point of AOW. Of course, you cant help but learn something, but its very basic overviews of the subjects. Specialities is where you master that stuff. AOW is simply experience dives. I also dont nanny my students. They are already OW certified, and can dive on their own. I simply introduce them to new experiences.

And what does it accomplish to introduce students to new experiences when they're not yet comfortable with the experiences they got from their OW class?

Sorry, but I have real issues with that approach.

First off, if so many people are coming out of AOW stating (as they do repeatedly on ScubaBoard) that they didn't get anything out of their AOW class, why isn't that a red flag to the agencies that maybe they should take a closer look at how the class is being taught ... rather than simply how it's being marketed?

Second, all of the agencies require a deep dive as part of their AOW (or whatever they choose to call the post-OW con-ed) class. How can they justify taking a student who isn't even comfortable with the basics of buoyancy control to 100 feet? Or certifying them to dive to that depth after only a single "experience" dive where they didn't even bother to teach them anything about how to prepare for a deep dive?

Based on your comments above, it sounds like the objective of AOW isn't to actually teach the student anything ... it's to use AOW as a means to sell more specialty classes. I have a real problem with that ... in my neck of the water, that's a great way to set a new diver up with a false sense of security that can land them in a really bad situation ... because at the end of the class you're handing them a card that says they're qualified to go do those dives they just "experienced". To my concern, before they get that card, they should have adequate knowledge and skills to go do those dives safely.

The objective of OW class is to teach a student to safely and independantly dive in conditions equal or better than those experienced during class, to use those basics to advanced their diving knowledge and experience, and to be able to rent gear, take con ed, and go on dive trips.

Well, based on some of the previous replies in this thread it sounds like a lot of people didn't feel qualified to dive on their own after OW class. How many other "divers" come out of those classes without such a well-developed sense of survival ... despite a C-card that allows them to acquire the gear and take the trips?

What are you really selling? And what is your primary objective? Shouldn't it be the safety and well-being of your students?

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[pir8]

Most warm H2O boats seem to not have Christmas Tree ladders. In the Jersey environment they do tend to have Fins On Ladders.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

disagree. A charter dive boat is a taxi.

It takes you to a site, it brings you back from a site. Thats all it should be and all it should try to be. The diving is the responsibility of the drivers and the boat is the responsibility of the skipper.

Im fully aware of the maritime laws regarding this as we use the boats all the time. The skipper is the boat and is not responsible for anything at all to do with the diving.
Its all about personal responsibility.

You apparently operate under a very different set of liability laws than Americans do ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

Thats the skippers call. He is in charge of the vessel. If he does try to force rules on divers they can just book elsewhere next time and spread the word there's a control freak on the loose. He'll soon lose business as many have.

Maybe ... but it doesn't seem to work that way here. Skippers set the rules of the dive. In the case I cited, that particular operation runs continuously ... and he never seems to hurt for business.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[DixieDolphin]

Now if it had been some luscuious babe in need of some instructions I'd have saddled up and made my presence noticed, helped her with her gear, asked to buddy up with her,etc. Who knows what the outcome would have been.

:11:

Note to self: Never dive with this guy.

But I think we have just found our first test subject should DAN ever do a study on the effects of diving while suffering from testosterone poisoning.

 

[Guba]

"Thats the skippers call. He is in charge of the vessel. If he does try to force rules on divers they can just book elsewhere next time and spread the word there's a control freak on the loose. He'll soon lose business as many have"

Nothing loses business like losing a diver or two. Certainly, things happen at sea and there are "accidents", but if a dive charter gains a reputation for "things" that happen on their boat...well, that can't be conducive to generating business.
And diving where I dive, the skipper and his crew had darned better know what is acceptible and enforce a few rules or things can go south in a hurry. Been there, seen it.
As for the fins-on-the-wrists issue, the op I use has tag lines from the bottom of the ladders. One simply reaches the tag lines, puts the fins on the wrists (or hangs them from a clip), pulls into the ladders and climbs. Conditions out there (Flower Gardens-Gulf of Mexico) can be pretty rough, and those ladders can saw the water pretty heavily. Under those conditions, keeping the fins on poses significant challenges.

 

[String]

You apparently operate under a very different set of liability laws than Americans do ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

Obviously. Something which i'm extremely thankful for.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

Fins on wrists on a bouncing boat in a rough sea with a current strikes me as an incredibly dull method of getting back on the boat.

Dont those boats have proper christmas tree ladders designed to be climbed by fully kitted divers?

With no fins on what if you lose grip someone and drift off in the current? What if you suddenly have to back away from the boat if something changes? No fins you're completely powerless to do anything.

Even if i wanted to do the unthinkable and remove my fins i couldnt fit them over my dryglove rings anyway so would be impossible.

Some do ... others don't. Again, I'll reiterate that it depends on the boat and the circumstances.

Some of y'all seem to limit yourselves to a particular type of boat, and so your perspective is centered strictly around that boat type.

I sometimes dive off of boats that don't even have ladders. You have to remove your kit in the water, clip it to a lanyard, climb into the boat, and hoist your kit up afterward. In that case, you remove everything except your fins ... you'll need those to kick yourself aboard.

I sometimes dive off of boats with ladders that allow you to keep your fins on while climbing the ladder and remove them once aboard.

Sometimes from boats with small, removable ladders that require you to remove your fins ... and some of those are not conducive to keeping your fins on your wrists, even if you can, because the manner in which you ascend the ladder requires you to have your hands free to grip handholds that are not part of the ladder.

Some boats have swim steps ... others require you to climb up the freeboard on the side of the boat.

The type of boat you're diving from will determine how you get back aboard. On charter boats, the captain or crew will always debrief you on how they want you to do it. If you're not comfortable with that, don't go ... or don't get in the water.

Always know how you're gonna get out before you get in ... and it will always be the case that conditions (current, waves, etc) and boat type will determine the most effective means of egress.

There is no single "best" method ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[String]

Nothing loses business like losing a diver or two. Certainly, things happen at sea and there are "accidents", but if a dive charter gains a reputation for "things" that happen on their boat...well, that can't be conducive to generating business.

All well and good but the incident reports dont back that up. If there were incidents id say its a problem but there aren't. Divers taking responsibility for their own actions and safety works.

Thats why you arent required to show qualifications to get a boat, to get gas or anything else - its personal responsibility.

Conditions out there (Flower Gardens-Gulf of Mexico) can be pretty rough, and those ladders can saw the water pretty heavily. Under those conditions, keeping the fins on poses significant challenges.

Very odd. The perfect way to board a boat in rough weather is fully kitted. Its the only safe way to do it. If someone legs go of that line, loses their grip or falls off the ladder they're completely helpless. They cant swim away from the boat if its drifting towards them, cant swim back to the boat if theres a current. Cant work out why dive boats operating in supposedly rough weather wouldnt be equipped for boarding in rough weather.

Lifts are ideal but lacking a lift i want to be fully kitted until im safely on that boat and sat down with no chance at all of ending up back in the water.

 

[nmdiveboy]

I think when instances like that are witnessed they should be reported to the instructors agency, from both the student themselves and the bystanding witnesses.
With most agencies OW certs they come with a magazine subscription, maybe they should send a questionaire with that on how the student felt about their class. Maybe they could ask a few Q's like, How proffesional, did you feel safe, content, things like that. It could be ranked 1-10 or maybe, not at all, kinda sorta, for the most part, seemed ok, over and above. Too make sure the students get it, the agencies could make it mandatory to get the addresses of the students before the cert cards are issued. That way the agencies could keep records on their instructors other than the overall stats of certs. I mean heck, PADI still sends me crap and I haven't been in a PADI course in nearly 3yrs. Maybe that way instructors would be held accountable for their actions and content during their classes.

Joe

Just a thought

Joe,

That's not a bad idea. This poor guy was trying to learn and when we got on the boat, he wasn't even sure how to put the regulator on the tank.

And then he had the instructor bitching at him about the low pressure/power inflator hoses. The guy had them both velcroed. The instructor looked at him and goes, "No no no. That's not right. You've got to have this one velcroed, and this one out." Proceeding to velcro the LP hose and leave the power inflator tube outside the velcro.

Now I know that's really a personal preference but come on - yelling at him and barking some ridiculous half-cocked nonsense?

I guess I was spoiled. My instructor for OW was very good, and very patient. And my AOW instructor (the shops owner) has over 10,000 dives in his career. So I felt very safe and very confident in my skills.

I think you're right - a detailed survey of some kind about the instructors should be mandatory prior to issuing your c cards. It might change the environment some and put the instructors in a position to really have to make sure people are comfortable in their skills.

Robert