Aow=bs

[seaducer]

And what does it accomplish to introduce students to new experiences when they're not yet comfortable with the experiences they got from their OW class?

Sorry, but I have real issues with that approach.

First off, if so many people are coming out of AOW stating (as they do repeatedly on ScubaBoard) that they didn't get anything out of their AOW class, why isn't that a red flag to the agencies that maybe they should take a closer look at how the class is being taught ... rather than simply how it's being marketed?

How many of those divers were new though? I know some people who took AOW just because an op required it, had been diving for years and learned nothing. But that is the dive op's fault, not the agencies. Personally, as a new OW diver, I learned a ton in my AOW class.

Second, all of the agencies require a deep dive as part of their AOW (or whatever they choose to call the post-OW con-ed) class. How can they justify taking a student who isn't even comfortable with the basics of buoyancy control to 100 feet? Or certifying them to dive to that depth after only a single "experience" dive where they didn't even bother to teach them anything about how to prepare for a deep dive?

I don't know, I remember there was a bit more information and theory on pressure, narcosis, dive planning etc. in my AOW as opposed to OW. This was 10+ years ago, it may have changed. Was I competent to lead a dive then? No way, but I think I had enough knowledge at that point to understand what I was getting into, and take part in deeper dives with more experienced buddies. Bouyancy was an eye opener, and I am glad the first time I went deep with a 7mm suit I had an instructor I trusted there with me, the compression made bouyancy and trim a challenge at depth, much more so than diving the same suit in 15-25 feet which was where my dives had been to that point.

Based on your comments above, it sounds like the objective of AOW isn't to actually teach the student anything ... it's to use AOW as a means to sell more specialty classes. I have a real problem with that ... in my neck of the water, that's a great way to set a new diver up with a false sense of security that can land them in a really bad situation ... because at the end of the class you're handing them a card that says they're qualified to go do those dives they just "experienced". To my concern, before they get that card, they should have adequate knowledge and skills to go do those dives safely.

Again, it may have changed, but I felt pretty comfortable taking part in deeper dives, or navigating, or helping search or recover something from the bottom after AOW. Again, I wasn't prepared to lead the planning or activities, but I was ready to take part, and I understood the risks and skills much more than I did after OW.

Well, based on some of the previous replies in this thread it sounds like a lot of people didn't feel qualified to dive on their own after OW class. How many other "divers" come out of those classes without such a well-developed sense of survival ... despite a C-card that allows them to acquire the gear and take the trips?

I was comfortable doing shallow daylight dives in good vis ( in NJ that means 10 feet)
However, I had never been deeper than 40 feet and was concerned about narcosis. I had never been on a wreck and was concerned about entanglement hazards. I had never been on a boat dive and was concerned about ettiquete and procedures. I had never dove at night and the thought made me nervous. While I had EXTENSIVE navigation experience in the Army, doing so U/W was foriegn to me.

AOW was a perfect fit for me. I am a bit adventurous though. I do agree that if you are feeling like you NEED an instructor just to feel safe diving, you should not throw the challenges of AOW into the mix. Hire a DM and get some confidence first.

FWIW I am not sure I can blame an instructor for passing someone who feels like they need to be guided on their first few dives. Lots of people are just very cautious about new things, and not comfortable striking out on their own at first, or maybe even ever. If they pass the tests and skills with proficiency is the instructor supposed to read their minds?

That personality is the product of the "bicycle helmet generation", and is probably the subject of another thread. Suffice to say alot of people's idea of adventure is watching Bear Grylls without commercials...

 

[Guba]

I'm with Seaducer on this one. I keep hearing how divers "didn't learn a thing" from their AOW class, and that's truly regrettable, but it wasn't what I experienced. I took the AOW cert when I had about 25 dives. After OW (and I feel to this day that my OW instructor was stellar), I was reasonably comfortable diving and I don't think I had serious issues with any major skills (buoyancy, gas management, etc...), but I felt that I learned a great deal in AOW. The nav and search skills were reinforced (hey, a friend and I later found a guy's lost TEETH using those techniques), the night dive was new, and I learned what being narced was during the deep dive. There were other 'refinements', and I came away feeling good about it.

I simply don't know what folks are talking about when they express so much resentment and relate how they feel cheated. I'm sorry your experience was so disappointing.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

I'm with Seaducer on this one. I keep hearing how divers "didn't learn a thing" from their AOW class, and that's truly regrettable, but it wasn't what I experienced. I took the AOW cert when I had about 25 dives. After OW (and I feel to this day that my OW instructor was stellar), I was reasonably comfortable diving and I don't think I had serious issues with any major skills (buoyancy, gas management, etc...), but I felt that I learned a great deal in AOW. The nav and search skills were reinforced (hey, a friend and I later found a guy's lost TEETH using those techniques), the night dive was new, and I learned what being narced was during the deep dive. There were other 'refinements', and I came away feeling good about it.

I simply don't know what folks are talking about when they express so much resentment and relate how they feel cheated. I'm sorry your experience was so disappointing.

The highlighted sentence above really is the key ... you did some dives before taking the next class, which allowed you to absorb what you learned in the previous one and put some context to what you learned. That way you had some degree of comfort with your basic OW skills, and therefore had some mental bandwidth available to focus on new things.

People who relate how they feel cheated were generally pushed into the class too soon ... or their instructors didn't put a whole lot of effort into doing anything except leading them around on a few guided dives. Neither of those is a situation that's conducive to learning anything ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[TSandM]

I think you're right - a detailed survey of some kind about the instructors should be mandatory prior to issuing your c cards.

GUE does this. It's one of the things I like about them.

 

[matts1w]

Very odd. The perfect way to board a boat in rough weather is fully kitted. Its the only safe way to do it.

The only way??? Really???

Guess we just dont have it figured out here in Florida.

If someone legs go of that line, loses their grip or falls off the ladder they're completely helpless.

Completely helpless? With my fins on my wrists I completely helpless. You mean I just cant slip them back on?

They cant swim away from the boat if its drifting towards them, cant swim back to the boat if theres a current.

Why would the boat be backing on me? Either the cab driver...errrr...captain lost his hook/mooring line or he is positioning himself up current which would equate to a bad cab driver. Otherwise there is no way he can drift back on me if he is where he should be- down current and down wind. If I fell or had to deal with current I might just grab the 30-40 feet of tag line right next to me and pull myself to the ladder. If there is so much current I blow past the tag line after falling fins aint gonna make one bit of difference on swimming back to the boat.

There is a bunch of ways to deal with big current, seas, and wind. Why not come over here to Key largo for a few? We can dive the Speigel Grove (big current and chop), evaluate some of the cracked out ways we climb aboard, and then go drink some beers at Sharkey's. Heck, you can even ask some of the skippers down here how they like being compared to some guy driving a cab down US1.

 

[seaducer]

GUE does this. It's one of the things I like about them.

Do you think they would follow up or take action if you filled out the form negatively?

I know alot of companies that require surveys but they are just lip service and don't mean much...

 

[seaducer]

The only way??? Really???

Guess we just dont have it figured out here in Florida.

Even a X-mas tree ladder can be hard to mount if it is moving fast and you have to fight the resistance of having your fins on. Then once you do get up the boat is pitching and you are top heavy and trying to shuffle in fins or get them off, recipe for disaster. I won't hand mine up unless I need to, but I like to get them off in the water first.

...and then go drink some beers at Sharkey's. Heck, you can even ask some of the skippers down here how they like being compared to some guy driving a cab down US1.

Don't think that would go over too well.

 

[matts1w]

Don't think that would go over too well.

I was joking about that.

 

[seaducer]

I was joking about that.

Too bad, it might have been fun to watch...

 

[Guba]

(To Bob's last post...)

Yup, I agree. I've always thought the timing of my certs was pretty much on target (at least for me). Funny thing...that timing was suggested to me by my OW instructor and I've always thought she was on the money about most of what she taught.
However, I've had three different instructors for all my certs...OW, AOW, and Rescue...and I've always felt they all did a good job. That's why when people complain about how lousy their trainers were or how there is such a lack of good ones...again, I just can't relate. I didn't have any problems at all in finding quality instruction.