Anyone ever been in an accident in Bonaire w/o their insurance?

[mmmbelows]

Oh boy, a bit of generalities being thrown around here. Chargebacks aren't automatic dismissals of a legitimate charge. Saying things like " If a customer disputes a charge for damages, the card issuer will not pay the merchant" really should say "if a customer disputes a charge for damages, the card issuer will investigate the charge and ask the merchant for proof of the charge being legitimate, if they send them proof such as a copy of a contract signed by the issuer, the credit card company will then honor the charge." Disputing a charge is only the course to a possible resolution, it isn't the resolution.

The renter may be "liable," but that doesn't mean the rental company is allowed to charge his credit card without his explicit pre-authorization. It's my understanding that pre-authorizations have to state an amount--they can't just leave it open-ended. It isn't like the car rental company can come up with a figure that they think makes them whole and just charge his card in that amount.

Again just your assumptions, number one, you don't know what the contract says for one thing, number two pre-authorizations are just a method to make the process simpler for the merchant and nothing more, they aren't a limitation on what can be charged. The merchant gets one to make it easy on themselves, again if it's disputed they send a copy of it to the credit card company "Here is a copy of the hard copy of the charge with the customers name on it". That just makes it easy for the merchant. If the contract says you're liable for the cost of the car and any loss of use, they don't need you to pre-sign a credit card slip for it in order for them to charge it, they simply charge it through electronically. If you dispute it again see the first paragraph of this reply. Also the amount pre-authorized here is the assumption it's for damages to the vehicle, most times this isn't the case, it's a blanket amount for 'additional charges' could be not filling with gas upon return and any manner of things, again it's just making it easy on the merchant to get paid, but it isn't setting a cap on the renter's liability.

The answers to the liability of the poster are on the rental contract he signed, and/or the rental agencies policies in regard to insurance waiving.

 

[Lorenzoid]

Oh boy, a bit of generalities being thrown around here. Chargebacks aren't automatic dismissals of a legitimate charge. Saying things like " If a customer disputes a charge for damages, the card issuer will not pay the merchant" really should say "if a customer disputes a charge for damages, the card issuer will investigate the charge and ask the merchant for proof of the charge being legitimate, if they send them proof such as a copy of a contract signed by the issuer, the credit card company will then honor the charge." Disputing a charge is only the course to a possible resolution, it isn't the resolution.

Okay, that is a more accurate way of phrasing it. The card issuer will not pay the merchant until the merchant provides proof, which in this case will depend on the contract the customer signed with the rental company. I made the statement based on an assumption that the customer is not going to bother disputing the charge if it plainly says in the contract that he agreed to it. If there is ambiguity in the contract, the card issuer will not pay the merchant without more.

Again just your assumptions, number one, you don't know what the contract says for one thing, . . . .

I have said more than once that I don't know what the contract says. I'm not making "assumptions" about what the contract says, I am stating what I believe, in my opinion, is likely to happen IF the contract does or does not say X. That is discussing a hypothetical scenario.

If the contract says you're liable for the cost of the car and any loss of use, they don't need you to pre-sign a credit card slip for it in order for them to charge it, they simply charge it through electronically. . . .

I may be mistaken, but that has not been my understanding of what will be permitted by the card issuer. As I understand it, the contract would need to say that the customer is not only "liable for the cost of the car" but also that the customer agrees to allow the car rental company to charge the credit card for the cost of the car in the event of a total loss. A car rental company, like any merchant, can attempt to charge whatever they want on a customer's card. But the customer has recourse against that. I think unless the contract provided specific authorization and a specific amount, the card issuer will side with the customer when the customer disputes the charge, unless and until there is some further resolution, such as a legal judgment. If you can prove me wrong, then I would be glad to have learned something about how this works.

 

[kelemvor]

Oh boy, a bit of generalities being thrown around here. Chargebacks aren't automatic dismissals of a legitimate charge. Saying things like " If a customer disputes a charge for damages, the card issuer will not pay the merchant" really should say "if a customer disputes a charge for damages, the card issuer will investigate the charge and ask the merchant for proof of the charge being legitimate, if they send them proof such as a copy of a contract signed by the issuer, the credit card company will then honor the charge." Disputing a charge is only the course to a possible resolution, it isn't the resolution.

It may be more complicated than my experience has shown me, as I've only ever done it 2 or 3 times in my whole life. That said, when I needed to file for a chargeback it was a simple one page form. Most of it was checkboxes, and other straightforward fields. Maybe the bank did a bunch of stuff behind the scenes, but it seemed quick and easy from my perspective. Once was against Apple, who I couldn't even get onto the phone in order to discuss the problem.

That was a case where I'm sure apple made me "sign" a contract saying they could charge me whatever they wanted if some criteria they set was met. Probably along the lines of "if your account is used to order whatever, you have to pay for it." The bank doesn't want to take the place of courts. If a store decides you owe them more money than you paid in person, they can take you to court and ask for it.

 

[mmmbelows]

Okay, that is a more accurate way of phrasing it. The card issuer will not pay the merchant until the merchant provides proof, which in this case will depend on the contract the customer signed with the rental company. I made the statement based on an assumption that the customer is not going to bother disputing the charge if it plainly says in the contract that he agreed to it. If there is ambiguity in the contract, the card issuer will not pay the merchant without more.




I have said more than once that I don't know what the contract says. I'm not making "assumptions" about what the contract says, I am stating what I believe, in my opinion, is likely to happen IF the contract does or does not say X. That is discussing a hypothetical scenario.



I may be mistaken, but that has not been my understanding of what will be permitted by the card issuer. As I understand it, the contract would need to say that the customer is not only "liable for the cost of the car" but also that the customer agrees to allow the car rental company to charge the credit card for the cost of the car in the event of a total loss. A car rental company, like any merchant, can attempt to charge whatever they want on a customer's card. But the customer has recourse against that. I think unless the contract provided specific authorization and a specific amount, the card issuer will side with the customer when the customer disputes the charge, unless and until there is some further resolution, such as a legal judgment. If you can prove me wrong, then I would be glad to have learned something about how this works.

You seem to believe for some reason that this car rental company in question has never rented a car before? Again I ask if you were going to rent someone a rental car would you just give him the keys and hope he brings it back whole or would you rent it to him with the means to collect monetarily to make yourself whole?

I'm baffled, as I always am to your posts, in this example I have no idea why you think there is a question that the car rental company that rented him this car didn't have him sign a rental contract that has the ability to collect from the renter for damages? Have you never read a rental agreement before? Do you honestly think rental car companies just rent cars without the means to collect damages????? When you rent a car you either 1)buy their insurances, 2)provide your own coverage through a credit card, and/or you accept full financial responsibility for damages.

Here is an example of terms from Avis' rental agreement:

PAYMENTS BY HIRER
3. The hirer shall pay the owner for the hire of the vehicle the sum or sums specified in the Rental Document; and authorizes the owner to charge all amounts payable to the hirer's account. The hirer's account means a nominated debit card, credit card, or pre-arranged charge account.

4. In addition to the payment specified in clause 3 above, the hirer acknowledges that they shall be liable at the end of the hire term to pay to the owner any applicable additional charges payable at the end of the term. These include, but are not limited to:
g. Charges for damage to or repair of the vehicle (subject to the other terms of the Rental Agreement); and any enforcement charges relating to such damage or repairs (including legal costs);

LIABILITY
15. The hirer is liable for:
a) any loss of, or damage to, the vehicle and its accessories;
b) any consequential damage, loss or costs incurred by the owner, including salvage costs, loss of ability to re-hire and loss of revenue; and
c) any loss of, or damage to, vehicles and property of third parties, arising during the term of hire.

HIRER USES THEIR OWN INSURANCE
23. If the hirer elects to use their own insurance, then the hirer accepts all liability for all losses, costs and damages set out in clause 15 (a) to (c), and agrees that clause 17 does not apply to such losses, costs and damages.

Seriously, now I just have no idea why you think any company in the business of renting cars to people isn't going to cover their ass in the contract you have to sign to rent the car???

 

[Stoo]

The coverage is very limited even if I did opt for it. I suppose I should state I would like constructive opinions/input.

So, the constructive part... Have you contacted your own car insurer? You very possibly have coverage on that. While I am a Canadian, my car insurance is with State Farm. I know I am covered on rental cars in Canada, but I haven't had occassion to ask about foreign rentals. My guess is that I am covered though.

For the not so constructive part, assuming Bonaire Law is similar to most countries, I think you are being wildly optimistic about not being at fault at all. Even if the other guy was speeding, you have the responsibility to make sure you can make a turn safely. In Canada, I have no doubt at all that you would both be held responsible for the accident in some percentage. He is responsible say 50% because he was speeding. You, because you failed to assess his speed correctly and turned in front of him. I guess the only good thing is that nobody was hurt. (I am also doubtful that he was going 50 mph when he hit you since that could very well have ended in serious injury or worse unless you were in a pretty significant car.

And for the really not-helpful part:

My opinion is you decided to not be insured, in a foreign country. Good luck.

I hate to say it, but you may well be on the hook for the cost of replacing the vehicle. Whether they can enforce it or not after you have left the country or not, who knows. (assuming they let you leave!)

Seriously though, check with your insurer at home... Maybe ask the question: "Hey nice insurance person... heading to Bonaire, gonna rent a car... does my insurance cover it?"

As opposed to "Hey nice insurance person... I'm in Bonaire and I just totalled my uninsured rental car. Am I covered?"

Good luck...

 

[kelemvor]

Did the officer issue either of you a citation/ticket for the accident? In Florida, I believe if you are cited you're considered at fault, not that Florida laws apply.

 

[Lorenzoid]

You seem to believe for some reason that this car rental company in question has never rented a car before? Again I ask if you were going to rent someone a rental car would you just give him the keys and hope he brings it back whole or would you rent it to him with the means to collect monetarily to make yourself whole?

I am not in the business of speculating as to what a contract from a car rental agency in Bonaire may or may not say. If I were the rental agency, I would want my contract to say what your sample AVIS contract says.

 

[Stoo]

I've always figured that rental companies have the vehicles insured anyway... In Canada, it is a major criminal offense to drive without liability insurance, although collision is not required. There's no way a rental company is going to run the risk of criminal charges or potential civil suit losses if a client isn't properly insured.

And, I doubt that "an Avis" would assume that they can just put the price of a new car on someone's credit card. I was in BC last year and was upgraded to a brand new (as in 12 km) BMW X5 since they didn't have the Jeep I had reserved... I declined insurance, based on my AMEX coverage as well as my own car insurance. The agent never confirmed that I had coverage on either. I don't know what a brand new X5 is worth, but I am pretty sure it's a little more than my cc limit! ;-)

 

[mmmbelows]

So, the constructive part... Have you contacted your own car insurer? You very possibly have coverage on that. While I am a Canadian, my car insurance is with State Farm. I know I am covered on rental cars in Canada, but I haven't had occassion to ask about foreign rentals. My guess is that I am covered though.

Canadian car insurers might be the exception but unfortunately American car insurance companies really never cover their clients rental car rentals outside the US. This is a very common misconception that comes up in Mexico all the time.

The biggest coverer of foreign rental cars for American's is through their credit cards, however, even then you need to be very careful because you might be making assumptions, the credit cards have lots of exceptions such as type of vehicle you rent (no trucks for example) and having specific lists of countries you aren't covered in. Also making it even more tricky is the issue of being primary and secondary position, reading the fine print you will usually find you must refuse certain insurance coverages or even all coverages from the rental company or you aren't covered by the credit card.

 

[Stoo]

That's interesting and not at all surprising. As we all know, Job 1 for insurance companies is to keep their customers happy. Hahahaha....

Not to distract from the topic at hand, but in our neighborhood (which is a small rural village) our Postal Code (ZIP code) was recently changed. The new code has the same prefix as a major city that's 15 miles away. Many of of neighbors have had massive premium increases since they "moved to the city". Apparently their appeals to common sense have gone nowhere... Any excuse to screw us.