Another Eagles Nest fatality

[tbone1004]

I wonder if they will release the dive log from the computer.

doubtful, but I think the only thing that would be relevant would be the pO2's from it, but if there was a pO2 problem, bailing out to OC would have resolved it. If it could be correlated to DCS, then I could see validity in it, but it sounds like he was gone before that could have been an issue, and assuming his buddies were on the same pO2 setting, and the bailout gas was mixed properly, the computer isn't going to tell us anything. That all said, nothing from what was posted would lead me to believe that anything on that computer is relevant.

This being completely opposite to the double fatality a few months ago where the computer would be able to reveal a whole lot about what may have happened back there due to the depth profile

 

[oldschoolto]

As someone with health problems... I understand what I did at 30 or even 40 , Is not what I can do at 56...

Jim....

 

[kensuf]

I've been making the rounds with this, but what the heck, let's post it here too.

I am sorry for the family of the deceased, but I have to think that the fact he was only cavern certified played a role.

Anyone who thinks the diver in question wasn't jacked up with adrenaline from diving the "mount everest of cave diving" as a lowly cavern diver is fooling themselves. Given his diving history and background, the mental stress from this dive could have easily led to any of a number issues, ranging from perceptual narrowing (was he monitoring his PO2 and the rest of his unit properly?) to a racing pulse rate (HR and BP going out of whack, leading to a medical) to rapid/shallow breathing (hyperventilation / CO2 build-up, also increases BP/HR, leading to a medical).

There is also the legitimate possibility that he had another issue and was unable to deal with them.

Regardless, it's not so cut and dried that anyone can say that his lack of training and experience wasn't a factor, it likely was.

I originally stated I was sorry for the survivors of this incident, but no, on second thought I'm not. You guys knew he was only cavern certified and went with him there.

 

[The Chairman]

I've known the deceased for a long, long time. Only recently did I learn that he was a Scuba Diver... I didn't know he was even cavern. I agree with many of you, but definitely with Ken. This was nothing but an adrenaline charged "trust me" dive. Please do the time, the training and the due diligence. There's nothing down there worth dying for.

 

[Dan]

RIP Charles Odom. Condolences to the family & friends.

100' is not very deep in comparison to the previous accident. It sounds like a health issue.

 

[dmaziuk]

From what I've read about IPE, science has no idea what causes it, and it has occurred in athletes, even swimmers. One minute you feel fine, and the next you feel like you're drowning in your own body fluid.

(This is off-topic of course) SIPE typically occurs in triathletes who pre-hydrate a lot for the long race i.e. they start with more water in their blood than you or I would normally have. Then they do a very gruelling distance with their blood pumping far beyond what you'd see in us Internet sportsmen, and then they plunge into cold water. That makes their capillaries constrict, rapidly upping blood pressure in the core blood vessels. They're probably also wearing tight suits that add to the compression. Apparently feeling a little off and popping aspirins before the race is even better. The net result is rapid jump in blood pressure in major vessels squeezes excess water out of the blood into the lungs. Being triatlethes, many of them just keep going, coughing out pink froth.

Or at least I was told that's the mechanism most commonly occurring in athletes. ICBW, YMMV and so on.

 

[Duke Dive Medicine]

(This is off-topic of course) SIPE typically occurs in triathletes who pre-hydrate a lot for the long race i.e. they start with more water in their blood than you or I would normally have. Then they do a very gruelling distance with their blood pumping far beyond what you'd see in us Internet sportsmen, and then they plunge into cold water. That makes their capillaries constrict, rapidly upping blood pressure in the core blood vessels. They're probably also wearing tight suits that add to the compression. Apparently feeling a little off and popping aspirins before the race is even better. The net result is rapid jump in blood pressure in major vessels squeezes excess water out of the blood into the lungs. Being triatlethes, many of them just keep going, coughing out pink froth.

Or at least I was told that's the mechanism most commonly occurring in athletes. ICBW, YMMV and so on.

That's a reasonable summary of the proposed mechanism behind "pure" SIPE, that is, pulmonary edema that has only an immersion component to it. Cold water and heavy exertion are risk factors, but overhydration isn't a prerequisite. Some individuals are predisposed to it.

Recreational divers represent a broader demographic. A diver with a pre-existing cardiac condition who is also predisposed to SIPE could suffer from immersion pulmonary edema during an otherwise "normal" dive.

Best regards,
DDM

 

[Ayisha]

Immersion Pulmonary Edema (I.P.E.) would be another possible medical scenario as the incident seemed to happen just after the initial descent, it would explain the choking sounds heard (unless it was meant that the choking sound was from the rebreather itself?) and would also explain why switching to OC bailout didn't solve the problem.

While we're speculating about IPE, choking sounds can also be indicative of the "chokes" or "Cardiorespiratory Decompression Sickness", which usually starts deeper than IPE. The choking sounds were apparently heard somewhere between 200 feet and the first deco stop.

 

[Kevrumbo]

Rule Out Hypercapnia as initial precipitating cause.
CO2 Retention

Originally Posted by TSandM
CO2 in the bloodstream is completely determined by minute ventilation, assuming the gas you are breathing does not contain additional CO2. Bailing to open circuit definitely makes it POSSIBLE to reduce the blood CO2 level, assuming you can achieve a higher minute ventilation than what's required to keep the CO2 where it is (which is in part related to level of exertion). It may not, however, be possible to reduce CO2 fast enough to clear your head and get rid of the panicky feeling, in part because the natural tendency when panicky is to breathe as fast as possible. On scuba, this means reducing the efficiency of the ventilation, because too much of it is just going to exchange gas in the trachea and large bronchi, which don't exchange gas. . .

 

[TotDoc]

I am surprised no one is talking about a possible caustic cocktail, or even aspiration of a mouthful of water as a cause of laryngospasm or pulm edema resulting in asphyxia. If there was some water ingress into the unit, a small caustic could have caused the choking and gagging and made it difficult for him to breathe. It could also cause ongoing issues that switching to bailout may not alleviate.

Likewise, the loop can develop some condensation that can make it's way into the mouthpiece. When I was diving manatee this past week, I managed to get a mouthful of water that made me cough and sputter a bit when I rolled to the side to look at something. It lacked the burning and bitterness of a caustic, but it was unpleasant all the same. I can totally see how normally accrued humidity in the loop could start a casade of problems if it makes its way into the airway.

Of course, an unrelated medical problem - like a heart attack - could certainly have made the victim choke and gag and have trouble breathing. Bad gas is also possible, sure, but it seems unusual that it didn't present until ascent, rather than at maximal depth where partial pressures of the bad gas would have been higher...and that symptoms didn't improve after going to bailout.

Who knows - all we can do is continue to speculate.

All I know is that there are a group of divers whose lives will never be the same, and one diver's family that will forever be changed as a result of this unfortunate incident. My heart and prayers goes out to all of them.