Another Eagles Nest fatality

[The Chairman]

How about this... I get open water certified at Blue Grotto. I go back months later without my instructor on my own free will and die of a medical incident in the back of the cavern? Still righteous for my family to sue the instructor? Same difference.

Actually, a rather famous instructor taught a Trimix class at Eagles Nest where he failed his students. They came back without him and died. Guess what: their survivors sued him. I don't know what came out of the suit. I believe he won, but they did sue him. What you see as unlikely actually happens in real life.

Is that what we're advocating?

It's not a matter of advocating the action... but of pointing out how it can happen. Huge difference.

I have been on ScubaBoard for more than a dozen years,

So far, ScubaBoard has not been involved in a single law suit involving an instructor/professional being sued for negligence. Speculation and hearsay have little weight in a court room. We shouldn't let our unfounded fears affect our goal of making safer divers through open discussion. I know that wasn't your intent, but I thought I would point this out so that pros won't feel like they are opening up themselves to crazy liability. I can't say it won't or can't happen, but so far it hasn't.

Wouldn't it also be fair to say that stress could be a significant factor

"Could be"? Sure. I will never understand this as I find immersion so calming. I only feel stress as I enter and exit the water. I call the dive if I ever feel spooked. Why push it?

 

[kensuf]

I have been on ScubaBoard for more than a dozen years, about as long as I have been a professional. Over that time, I cannot estimate how many threads appeared in which people would wax eloquent on the possibilities of lawsuits for professionals. I would typically scoff and challenge them to prove examples of anything like those possibilities ever happening. They never could. In fact, in a couple of occasions, attorneys would do searches and find only cases files that looked pretty darn reasonable, and the only successful case they could find was one in which everyone would agree that the professional's conduct was ridiculously bad. In the last few years, though, I can cite cases myself that I would not have previously dreamed any attorney would ever file, and I can cite successful cases that stagger the imagination. It scares me, to be honest.

Fair enough. I think Willis and First Flight getting out of the underwriting of professional scuba liability insurance was a pretty big set of canaries.

 

[kensuf]

Actually, a rather famous instructor taught a Trimix class at Eagles Nest where he failed his students. They came back without him and died. Guess what: their survivors sued him. I don't know what came out of the suit. I believe he won, but they did sue him. What you see as unlikely actually happens in real life.

Hombre, the accident files are littered with the corpses of people that died in the caves they were introduced to during their OW check-out dives. The students would go back to the site they were trained, and then kill themselves. Royal Springs was one of the most prominent ones, Ginnie Springs (proper, not Devil's) was #2. Morrison was up there as well.

The CDS initiated a campaign in the late 70s to get the recreational training agencies to bar instructors from taking students into the overhead. That helped curb the deaths.

 

[The Chairman]

Hombre, the accident files are littered with the corpses of people that died in the caves they were introduced to during their OW check-out dives.

I have a real issue with instructors doing this. I've seen it at Blue Spring in Orange City, in the Ball Room, on the Speigel Grove and I wish I could report them and have it stick.

But this involved an instructor who FAILED these guys on an advanced class. No, I don't think they were cave divers either, which compounds the issue. Training dives are often guided dives as well. A cave instructor can take you one level past your current level. Maybe that's the disconnect.

 

[oldschoolto]

I'm not a CCR diver or Cave diver or Tri-mix diver... So, I am a deep northeast wreck diver that was diving deep on air in the 70's... All self taught, All learned by mentors and reading.. We are talking about steel 72's with double hose and no SPG...

I know some people learn really fast and others are as dumb as a box of rocks... How long is the course if I buy a CCR ? How long is the course to get a cavern card ? How long is the DECO course ? How long is a TRI-MIX course ? I'm asking in Hours of book work, Classroom training and diving with the instructor...

I'm trying to understand why some people are posting the way they are.. From the sounds of the accident, Had he been diving 10 years and had every "C" card and was with the greatest cave divers to ever dive Eagle Nest... He would still be dead... From what I've read, The divers did all that could be done and To be placing blame on them at this time is un-founded... This is a very unforgiving sport.. People die... There is not a whole lot you can do for a diver underwater if you have a medical problem, And it's even impossible if you have a hard ceiling ( inside a cave or wreck or a DECO obligation )

We have a saying in Skydiving about losing friends to the sport... It goes ; The Mistress we LOVE and HATE... The Mistress we call our sport... Blue Skies.. Black Death..

Jim...

 

[tbone1004]

we'll go with days because it's easier, but you can check the full standards on TDI's website. Most of the courses are the same

Mod-1 on CCR is typically 5 days. That's your basic OW equivalent on a CCR. Air diluent, no decompression, etc. Just basic CCR. Some agencies will allow up to 15 minutes of decompression, but ultra basic CCR. Minimum is usually 9 hours in the water, over at least 8 dives through TDI
Mod-2 on CCR is typically 3-4 days and is normoxic trimix
Mod-3 on CCR is typically 3 days and is full trimix-requires at least 50 hours of non training on the unit

Cavern is 2 days/4 dives
Intro is 2 days/4 dives
Apprentice is 2 days/4 dives
Full is 2 days/4 dives

Deco is typically conducted in conjunction with Advanced Nitrox so you can do O2 deco and is 3-4 days depending on the instructor and agency. If combined, and you don't suck, it is usually 3 days/6 dives

This is all the 'typical' number of days and may be adjusted depending on the divers experience. You can't skirt hours in the water or a required number of dives, but Full Cave from nothing requires 16 total dives and if you are chewing through skills that you are already proficient at, you can do 3 dives a day for the beginning portions and potentially crank it out in 6-7 days. Trimix courses are not typically able to be done any shorter due to the number of dives requirement and the subsequent hours of bottom time that get a little long to do multiple dives in a day. Normoxic you usually do a couple dives the first two days since they are largely skills dives that are fairly short, but for full trimix, you're in for some 3+ hour run times if you're not in a cave. First day is usually 2 dives in the shallow section for bottle handling and what not, then the next two days are the actual big dives.

so, after OW and AOW, he would have had to have a minimum of 16 days of training, with at least 50 hours on his CCR of outside diving assuming his mix training was done on CCR. That is a lot of training in a very short amount of time without any real dive time to get proper experience. Sure he was trained and arguably had enough training to conduct that dive. Yes I know we consider the ballroom in EN a cave, and it is, but I truly believe that if he had full cave training, the outcome wouldn't have been any different.
What is important and I think what is being discussed, is that he really had no business being in that Ballroom and his buddies should have recognized that and not taken him in there in the first place

 

[Patoux01]

@tbone1004, does he need to be ccr hypoxic for the ballroom? 200' is 60m, isn't that done on normoxic?

 

[tbone1004]

@tbone1004, does he need to be ccr hypoxic for the ballroom? 200' is 60m, isn't that done on normoxic?

yes, but he was hypoxic afaik

 

[PfcAJ]

@tbone1004, does he need to be ccr hypoxic for the ballroom? 200' is 60m, isn't that done on normoxic?

Also note that his "deepest dive" according to a FB post was like 258'.

I KNOW you can't get to 258' in the ballroom (assuming he did that at Eagles Nest), and I'm fairly certain you can't get to 200' and be able to see the exit tube either.

Additionally, if you read the report that Brandon Johnson wrote and I copied into this thread, a lot of the troubles on this dive happened at 60-70ft. That's right where the ceiling is.

It's possible that the deceased had a caustic cocktail causing the choking sound resulting in laryngospasm, attempted to bailout (gases and methods unknown), and blacked out or had a lung overexpansion injury as he ascended and hit the ceiling.

We have a fairly defined storyline but no report on the gases, condition of the ccr, computer graphs (oxygen toxicity is still a contender) or really much of anything.

 

[DandyDon]

Apologies if this has been posted earlier and I missed it. Cause of death ruled as (corrected) "accidental drowning while cave diving at Eagle's Nest on Jan. 8, according to the Medical Examiner's Office.

Atherosclerosis, or the buildup of plaque in the arteries, contributed to Odom's death, as did obesity, the Medical Examiner's Office said."
Cause of death determined in Eagle's Nest cave dive death

With thanks to Diving Dubai for correcting my first post. See following post, next page.