Another Eagles Nest fatality

[tbone1004]

He should never been in EN. Using a super deep, very dangerous cave as an open water training site is extremely stupid. The two guys who died in October were fully qualified to be doing what they were doing and got killed in what amounts to a freak accident when one got stuck exiting a restriction.

this dive wasn't a training dive

 

[oldschoolto]

Maybe, just maybe, it is because they had the required training and skills?

You are missing the point... Training had nothing to do with this death... Should he have been in EN ? NO... But going on and on about training is a dead end... We should be talking about older divers getting full work-up medical checks and being healthy to do dives... Maybe we need to have a scale at the steps to EN, And a reader for your blood work..

Jim....

 

[KevinNM]

And stop pushing people through courses as fast as they can write checks.

 

[oldschoolto]

And stop pushing people through courses as fast as they can write checks.

Now you are talking about taking money out of their pockets... You know how that'll go over... They are already calling each other out about being no good and dangerous...

jim...

 

[bamafan]

So you have a guy who was totally out of shape and unfit for strenuous exercise who was just recently trained in Eagle's Nest for classes that some agencies would not allow to be done there but apparently IANTD doesn't have a problem with that or people taking their classes who probably couldn't pass a basic fitness test. The instructor should have never taken him to Eagle's Nest as I am sure this gave him a false sense of security.

As far as the two guys who died in Eagle's Nest after a failed ditch and done exercise there is a big difference between certified and qualified.

 

[oldschoolto]

Well this is not a problem limited to cave diving.. The fact is, VERY FEW people can be real cave divers... Wreck divers or mountain climbers... IMHO, The minute you get a guy thinking he can make money doing something he loves by getting paid to train.. The cat's out of the bag... I'm a life long scuba diver and Skydiver... Lost a lot of friends along the way..

Back before all the classes and cards, Before people started going after the almighty dollar... People did it for the love of the sport.. If you wanted in... All the money in the world would not get you a seat at the big boys table.. You earned your way with hard work and taking the baby steps that gave you the time to learn what you didn't know , You didn't know it..

90% of the people diving today would not be diving if we went back to the old school way of mentoring... 90% of the people skydiving today would be sitting on the ground... 95% of the people doing Everest and other big climbs would be sitting on the couch drinking a cocktail and reading a book....

We can't turn back the clock... It is what it is....

Jim....

 

[Dsix36]

I feel that I need to throw something out for those who do not fully understand rebreathers and pushing limits on one.

First off let me tell you a small bit about my own diving. I have been diving rebreathers since 2003, am a certified full cave diver on CCR, have been past the "deadly" restriction in Eagles Nest several times, and have even had a really bad day back there once. I am not a guru or anyone special by any means, just another diver.

A diver on CCR who is not in the "best of health" and is diving past their training limits is very prone to being excited or even anxious while doing so. This, in itself, is not a real problem until you fully understand that it can easily lead to improper breathing and the diver can begin to retain CO2 without even knowing it. This can be a contributor to many things and may very well be the initial cause of several fatalities in the past. There is no way to prove it due to the retained gasses being cleaned by the scrubber. Bailing out to OC can fix it if done soon enough but can still take a long while to get breathing corrected. I believe that increased CO2 and the effects of it have been implicated as possible contributors to heart attacks. I know for a fact that it does put one hell of a strain on me when it happens. Rebreathers DO NOT breath as easy as OC and must be given due respect by the diver.

IMHO this diver had a damn good chance of NOT having heart issues if he were doing a dive in an environment that did not push his comfort level.

 

[Kevrumbo]

I feel that I need to throw something out for those who do not fully understand rebreathers and pushing limits on one.

First off let me tell you a small bit about my own diving. I have been diving rebreathers since 2003, am a certified full cave diver on CCR, have been past the "deadly" restriction in Eagles Nest several times, and have even had a really bad day back there once. I am not a guru or anyone special by any means, just another diver.

A diver on CCR who is not in the "best of health" and is diving past their training limits is very prone to being excited or even anxious while doing so. This, in itself, is not a real problem until you fully understand that it can easily lead to improper breathing and the diver can begin to retain CO2 without even knowing it. This can be a contributor to many things and may very well be the initial cause of several fatalities in the past. There is no way to prove it due to the retained gasses being cleaned by the scrubber. Bailing out to OC can fix it if done soon enough but can still take a long while to get breathing corrected. I believe that increased CO2 and the effects of it have been implicated as possible contributors to heart attacks. I know for a fact that it does put one hell of a strain on me when it happens. Rebreathers DO NOT breath as easy as OC and must be given due respect by the diver.

IMHO this diver had a damn good chance of NOT having heart issues if he were doing a dive in an environment that did not push his comfort level.

Yes, I concur that's the most likely scenario (barring any Rebreather malfunctions):

Rule Out Exertion Hypercapnia on Underwater Breathing Apparatus as initial precipitating cause leading into Dynamic Airway Compression/Collapse ("coughing exhalation symptoms while on the Loop as signs of acute CO2 retention and poisoning" - see Simon Mitchell's YouTube presentation on Respiratory Problems in Technical Diving), with subsequent Unconsciousness and/or Cardiorespiratory Arrest with final Drowning. Victim with history of Atherosclerosis and Obesity.

Originally Posted by TSandM
CO2 in the bloodstream is completely determined by minute ventilation, assuming the gas you are breathing does not contain additional CO2. Bailing to open circuit definitely makes it POSSIBLE to reduce the blood CO2 level, assuming you can achieve a higher minute ventilation than what's required to keep the CO2 where it is (which is in part related to level of exertion). It may not, however, be possible to reduce CO2 fast enough to clear your head and get rid of the panicky feeling, in part because the natural tendency when panicky is to breathe as fast as possible.. . .

 

[oldschoolto]

Are we taking for granted that he was all hyped up over this dive ? I know a lot of people like me that their blood pressure stays normal when the $hit hits the fan and the end looks near... The easy answer to this is... The guy had a medical problem at depth and died... I'm a vet and get a full work-up every year, Blood work every 3 months and a finger in my butt every 6 months... More people should do it... OKAY, Only the finger in the butt after 55....

Jim...

 

[cerich]

Are we taking for granted that he was all hipped up over this dive ? I know a lot of people like me that their blood pressure stays normal when the $hit hits the fan and the end looks near... The easy answer to this is... The guy had a medical problem at depth and died... I'm a vet and get a full work-up every year, Blood work every 3 months and a finger in my butt every 6 months... More people should do it... OKAY, Only the finger in the butt after 55....

Jim...

I think the hyped up thought is a stretch. I think he had been scootering before on similar dives in the nest at these depths, that is much less demanding than swimming, he was swimming this dive and he was out of shape and it killed him.