Another Eagles Nest fatality

[The Chairman]

The training, gear, certification level, length of time diving, is all moot if it is a medical incidence.

Mostly moot. If I have a serious medical event underwater, there is very little chance that I'll survive it. If I'm way back in a cave, "little" evaporates.

 

[KevinNM]

Which means, none of it (training, gear, certification level, length of time diving) was a contributing factor to the death.

I suspect a plaintiffs attorney could make a very good case that this isn't true. And I bet they will. Just compare the the stress and exertion level of a poorly trained diver with poorly though out equipment and inadequate buoyancy and trim swimming at 45 degrees through the water compared to that of a well trained confident diver using equipment they are totally comfortable with and manages buoyancy and trim unconsciously to stay flat and exactly where they want to be in the water column.

 

[Avalize]

Mostly moot. If I have a serious medical event underwater, there is very little chance that I'll survive it. If I'm way back in a cave, "little" evaporates.

Wouldn't it also be fair to say that stress could be a significant factor that results from lack of training and experience? If it's a cardiac issue, then stress most certainly can be a trigger factor. And if I started having some problems in a dive I was ill equipped to deal with, I suspect my stress level would rapidly go through the roof.

It feels a bit too speculative at this point, but I think people tend to dismiss training and experience a bit too early, just because the primary cause may not be a diving skill issue.

Most tragic accidents in diving results from a situation where multiple things go wrong at once; might be best not to tunnel vision too much on the "final" issue alone.

 

[CuzzA]

I suspect a plaintiffs attorney could make a very good case that this isn't true. And I bet they will. Just compare the the stress and exertion level of a poorly trained diver with poorly though out equipment and inadequate buoyancy and trim swimming at 45 degrees through the water compared to that of a well trained confident diver using equipment they are totally comfortable with and manages buoyancy and trim unconsciously to stay flat and exactly where they want to be in the water column.

Really? How the hell do you prove that? Furthermore, my family should righteously sue an instructor if I have a medical incident and die and claim it was because I wasn't in trim when the instructor wasn't even present? WTF are we talking about here? I heard no mention of buoyancy issues from the witness accounts. I've never before seen so much speculation fly in one of these threads.

How about this... I get open water certified at Blue Grotto. I go back months later without my instructor on my own free will and die of a medical incident in the back of the cavern? Still righteous for my family to sue the instructor? Same difference.

Is that what we're advocating? Boy, I'd tread lightly if I was an instructor in Florida and meanwhile on "Scuba"Board we're setting that kind of precedent.

 

[PfcAJ]

The training, gear, certification level, length of time diving, is all moot if it is a medical incidence.

One could argue to the roof about how any of that 'assistance' the possible (probable?) medical cause. Is there an ME that would put any of that down on a death certificate?

Which means, none of it (training, gear, certification level, length of time diving) was a contributing factor to the death.

At a minimum the surviving divers were unable to maintain an ascent with the unconscious diver.

That's for sure a training/skill/ability thing.

 

[KevinNM]

Really? How the hell do you prove that? Furthermore, my family should righteously sue an instructor if I have a medical incident and die and claim it was because I wasn't in trim when the instructor wasn't even present? WTF are we talking about here? I heard no mention of buoyancy issues from the witness accounts. I've never before seen so much speculation fly in one of these threads.

How about this... I get open water certified at Blue Grotto. I go back months later without my instructor on my own free will and die of a medical incident in the back of the cavern? Still righteous for my family to sue the instructor? Same difference.

Is that what we're advocating? Boy, I'd tread lightly if I was an instructor in Florida and meanwhile on "Scuba"Board we're setting that kind of precedent.

People who have trained with the rebreather divers this fine shop produces described watching them swim around out of trim at a 45 degree angle, just like a poorly trained OW diver.

 

[Compressor]

I'm not going to analyze the accident (I read the posts). I've read all the posts.
I keep thinking about what happened over and over again but come to the same conclusion: so sad to loose 2 divers.

 

[KevinNM]

This time it was just one. Unless we are taking about the October 16th accident?

 

[boulderjohn]

So what is your current thinking?

I have been on ScubaBoard for more than a dozen years, about as long as I have been a professional. Over that time, I cannot estimate how many threads appeared in which people would wax eloquent on the possibilities of lawsuits for professionals. I would typically scoff and challenge them to prove examples of anything like those possibilities ever happening. They never could. In fact, in a couple of occasions, attorneys would do searches and find only cases files that looked pretty darn reasonable, and the only successful case they could find was one in which everyone would agree that the professional's conduct was ridiculously bad. In the last few years, though, I can cite cases myself that I would not have previously dreamed any attorney would ever file, and I can cite successful cases that stagger the imagination. It scares me, to be honest.

 

[clownfishsydney]

After reading all this, I still come back to my first opinion when I read the OP, it is probably/possibly IPE.

In addition, there is no way that someone diving for 1.5 years and getting to this level of diving has got any "real" experience. The fact is, all the courses that they have had to do to get to be able to learn, do advanced, deep, nitrox, dive caves, CCR, etc basically takes up all of their actual diving. They do not get any real experience, that is, diving without an instructor or dive master or guide or whatever. Dave Shaw is the perfect example of this. I calculated that of his 333dives before he died, he probably did 275 dives as part of his training or under the supervision of an instructor. You cannot get experience diving like that.