Another diver injured in Gilboa Quarry

[BCS]

Gezz, Mike was in bad enough mood the weekend after the first incident..more so than usual, I understand why.
Kinda weird that he was diving the shallow side and was put on O2. The deepest I think you can get without going "over the wall" is 70 and that is by the tubes.

Just a quick fyi, O2 isn't only for bends, but for any possible pulmonary barotrauma. Bends are not as serious an issue as one might be lead to believe. They are survivable in most cases and especially so when diving recreational schedules. The real potential death threat is the embolism from panic and bolting to the surface....even a momentary closing off of the airway (ie. a cough) during a rapid ascent from 10 or 20' will throw and emboli and that is a true, life threatening emergency. O2 is required and highly recommended for a pulmonary embolism. That victim will have seriously compromised gas exchange and is most likely not receiving enough O2. Throw in the very distinct possiblity that they ruptured a lung (pneumothorax) as well and it gets ugly quick due to the lung's inability to exchange O2 for CO2.
Just a quick comment regarding Mike. I have been fortunate to have known Mike since he first visited the quarry to buy it from Dan and I have also been a very frequent customer of the quarry for at least 15 years, long before Mike took ownership. Accidents in early 90's before Mike took ownership, were much more frequent. Mike (and Jody) have taken this quarry and not only cleaned it up and made it safer topside via the well maintained grounds and decks, but they have also done a tremendous job of trying to ensure that divers entering the water are fully aware of the hazards of diving in his quarry. One can try, but you just can't protect people from themselves all of the time. Accidents will continue to happen, and barring Mike restricting the diving to only the extremely well qualified, there isn't much more he can do to protect people from getting into trouble and unable to handle it. At some time, people need to accept responsiblity and realize their own limitations. It is only diving and it is not a statement against anyone as a human being if they are not able or qualified to be diving the quarry. Take up something where the consequences of a bad day are not necessarily a helicopter ride to a chamber or worse.
Mike does take these things personally and that is too bad. I can understand it, but from my point of view, Mike and Jody have done a GREAT job at Gilboa, not only wrt increasing safety, but in just making the place a much nicer place to bring students and spend a weekend....and I hope they continue to stay.
(just my $0.02, not trying to ruffle anyone's feathers....)

Best Regards,
Brandon

 

[BCS]

I also thinks it BS that he approves a deep dive plan. How the hell does Mike Williams know if that plan I good or not. I dont see him in the water evey weekend like the rest of us. Is he a instructor or a dive master ect....My guesses are NO! . . . Only reason i give him money is because durring the winter in MI there isnt anything else.

Hmmm... Well, you are certainly welcome to your opinion.
I believe Mike is asking for a dive plan so that he can see if someone is indeed (at the very least) able to plan a safe dive in the deep end of the quarry. True, he can't possibly know the skill level of every diver entering the deep end and therefore has to rely on something besides jumping in the water and evaluating each diver (which is utterly ridiculous to expect him to do so)... and I believe he is learning the hard way that the "cards" one is carrying mean absolutely nothing wrt one's abilities, so filing a plan at least tells him that the diver can at a minimum, plan a dive and understands the hazards of that particular environment as pointed out on the dive plan checklist.
Regardless of whether one agrees or not, it is his quarry and personally, given what he has done to improve conditions for us, I think the prices are very fair. And he's always been very nice to me and the folks I bring.
I am gonna bet he yelled at you for exceeding the 5mph speed limit! He's kinda picky about that...I know, he got me too...the first day he posted them!
Don't take it personally, he means well...

Best,
Brandon

Terry Carmen - Mod Edit to remove name calling in quote

 

[jrockosaurus]

Hmmm... Well, you are certainly welcome to your opinion.
I believe Mike is asking for a dive plan so that he can see if someone is indeed (at the very least) able to plan a safe dive in the deep end of the quarry. True, he can't possibly know the skill level of every diver entering the deep end and therefore has to rely on something besides jumping in the water and evaluating each diver (which is utterly ridiculous to expect him to do so)... and I believe he is learning the hard way that the "cards" one is carrying mean absolutely nothing wrt one's abilities, so filing a plan at least tells him that the diver can at a minimum, plan a dive and understands the hazards of that particular environment as pointed out on the dive plan checklist.
Regardless of whether one agrees or not, it is his quarry and personally, given what he has done to improve conditions for us, I think the prices are very fair. And he's always been very nice to me and the folks I bring.
I am gonna bet he yelled at you for exceeding the 5mph speed limit! He's kinda picky about that...I know, he got me too...the first day he posted them!
Don't take it personally, he means well...

Best,
Brandon

First of all, there is no excuse for yelling at your customers. Especially for something as small as going 10 mph in a 5. The guy's a bad businessman and as dudley pointed out, knows nothing about diving. All he is doing by "approving" plans is opening himself up to more liability. He should provide a liability release and that's it. It's absolutely asinine for someone who isn't even certified and therefore doesn't know anything about safe diving procedures to say what someone who did actually put the effort in to it that they are or aren't qualified to dive where they please. He's just a dumb Ohio farmboy who happens to own a great dive spot. I'll be there a lot more when someone finally sues him and turns it in to a nice place to visit.

 

[bladephotog]

First of all, there is no excuse for yelling at your customers. Especially for something as small as going 10 mph in a 5. The guy's a bad businessman and as dudley pointed out, knows nothing about diving. All he is doing by "approving" plans is opening himself up to more liability. He should provide a liability release and that's it. It's absolutely asinine for someone who isn't even certified and therefore doesn't know anything about safe diving procedures to say what someone who did actually put the effort in to it that they are or aren't qualified to dive where they please. He's just a dumb Ohio farmboy who happens to own a great dive spot. I'll be there a lot more when someone finally sues him and turns it in to a nice place to visit.

Wow, that's a little harsh. Mike's a good guy. Yeah, he's old school, set in his ways, and a bit gruff at times. But he has his reasons why he doesn't want people driving too fast or diving beyond their limits. As far as I know he is certified but usually too busy running the place to dive much.

Do you really think a liability release will keep people from suing? I think requiring a deep plan is a good idea. It forces people to think about having a dive plan, something most people never do. It also gives him a chance to talk to the divers and determine if they know what they are doing or not.

If you play within his rules you'll never have a problem with him.

 

[Divin'Papaw]

I also thinks it BS that he approves a deep dive plan. How the hell does Mike Williams know if that plan I good or not. I dont see him in the water evey weekend like the rest of us. Is he a instructor or a dive master ect....My guesses are NO! Also i think he is a Rude A-Hole and overcharges eveything there. Only reason i give him money is because durring the winter in MI there isnt anything else.

You're kidding me right? You should try going to our wonderful local quarry just outside of Indianapolis and pay $20 a day for a facility that has a mere fraction of what Gilboa has to offer.

 

[trucker girl]

I dive Gilboa and I'm proud of it. Yeah- he charges a lot. But when I compare Gilboa quarry to anywhere else I've been- the price is right. Especially considering that I can buy an impromptu Snickers bar or hot dog on a whim!

Mike has a bad reputation- and I've seen him do or say things that I didn't think were necessary or nice. But he's got a nice place. If you don't like him or Gilboa, don't dive there. It's a simple case of "let the market decide." I don't think Mike's trying to win a popularity contest for topside personality.

I didn't think they "approved" your dive plan at Gilboa- I just thought they required one. I don't dive the deep side- so I guess I don't know. It's too cold for me over there! I thought the dive plan was so they knew where to search for the body...

 

[BCS]

First of all, there is no excuse for yelling at your customers. Especially for something as small as going 10 mph in a 5. The guy's a bad businessman and as dudley pointed out, knows nothing about diving. All he is doing by "approving" plans is opening himself up to more liability. He should provide a liability release and that's it. It's absolutely asinine for someone who isn't even certified and therefore doesn't know anything about safe diving procedures to say what someone who did actually put the effort in to it that they are or aren't qualified to dive where they please. He's just a dumb Ohio farmboy who happens to own a great dive spot. I'll be there a lot more when someone finally sues him and turns it in to a nice place to visit.

Ok, you too are equally welcome to your opinion.
And "first of all" Mike is in fact, certified and understands full well the hazards involved in diving his quarry. Regardless of that fact, he can & will run the place the way he sees fit and does take input from divers w/a lot more experience than 100 dives as well as attorneys. Folks dive there because he allows them to do so and at a fair price. There were a few more quarries available to us in Ohio years ago, but it seems they tend to be sold to developers when the owners weigh having to deal w/the general diving public that feel a sense of entitlement to diving on private land and don't want to play by the rules the owners set forth vs. just taking the money a developer is offering and running.
Again, you're welcome to express your opinion, I just think folks should know how experienced in the diving community the guy is that is calling the quarry owner a "dumb Ohio Farmboy" and giving him legal recommendations.
Mike had done a ton to help make the quarry safer and more attractive to divers. I hope he doesn't take your opinion as one that is shared by the majority of us who patronize Gilboa.
I can't apologize for him yelling at anyone. If that's one's beef we/him then just say "he yelled at me and it hurt my feelings"...it doesn't warrant the name calling. That doesn't benefit anyone.
Nobody forces anyone to go to Gilboa and there are other alternatives. I would suggest maybe choosing those locations if Mike's rules and/or personality are unacceptable to you. But coming on the Net and calling him a "dumb Ohio farmboy" that is "asinine" for calling for a dive plan "when he isn't even certified" is not right. Get your facts straight at the very least please.
Take care and dive safe.

Best Regards,
Brandon

 

[jrockosaurus]

Ok, you too are equally welcome to your opinion.
And "first of all" Mike is in fact, certified and understands full well the hazards involved in diving his quarry. Regardless of that fact, he can & will run the place the way he sees fit and does take input from divers w/a lot more experience than 100 dives as well as attorneys. Folks dive there because he allows them to do so and at a fair price. There were a few more quarries available to us in Ohio years ago, but it seems they tend to be sold to developers when the owners weigh having to deal w/the general diving public that feel a sense of entitlement to diving on private land and don't want to play by the rules the owners set forth vs. just taking the money a developer is offering and running.
Again, you're welcome to express your opinion, I just think folks should know how experienced in the diving community the guy is that is calling the quarry owner a "dumb Ohio Farmboy" and giving him legal recommendations.
Mike had done a ton to help make the quarry safer and more attractive to divers. I hope he doesn't take your opinion as one that is shared by the majority of us who patronize Gilboa.
I can't apologize for him yelling at anyone. If that's one's beef we/him then just say "he yelled at me and it hurt my feelings"...it doesn't warrant the name calling. That doesn't benefit anyone.
Nobody forces anyone to go to Gilboa and there are other alternatives. I would suggest maybe choosing those locations if Mike's rules and/or personality are unacceptable to you. But coming on the Net and calling him a "dumb Ohio farmboy" that is "asinine" for calling for a dive plan "when he isn't even certified" is not right. Get your facts straight at the very least please.
Take care and dive safe.

Best Regards,
Brandon

First of all, he's never yelled at me. I always follow the rules when I go there and I don't have a problem with him. That said, I've seen the way he treats his other customers and I've talked to him about diving (or tried to at least). That is where I form the basis for my opinion. If someone isn't following the rules, you kick them out. Period. There are no excuses to treat customers that way. That by itself tells me he has no business sense. Maybe I was harsh in calling him a "dumb Ohio farmboy" but I don't believe it to be far from the truth. You try and make is sound cowardly that I come to the "net" and toss names around but last time I checked, this was an internet based forum. If I'm supposed to express my ideas somewhere else, let me know about it.

What certifications does he possess? I personally asked him if he dove and he said no. So I'm not sure how I can get my facts any straighter that that. Any who is offering legal advice? I simply stated that he is opening himself up to more liability by approving dive plans. Divers are responsible for their dive plans, NO ONE ELSE. Anybody that know anything about professional diving (which I assume you do since you claim to be a tech instructor) knows that it only opens you up to more liability.

Why do I go to Gilboa then? To keep my skills up. I can't get to the lakes in the winter and I prefer to spend the few months I do have on them diving and not refreshing my skills. Show me another spot where I can easily hit 130' of dark cold water and I will happily go there instead. I suspect most people who have tolerated his antics would.

 

[scubagrrl06]

Does anyone know anything more about what happened to this diver? I read he was released, was it nothing serious?

 

[crpntr133]

Two weeks ago I asked Mike if he was a certified diver, he replied "yes but I don't dive due to the business."

The diver was released from the hospital a couple days ago. This according to a local paper.