Another diver injured in Gilboa Quarry

[Hoosier]

My .02 worth...

Accidents will happen even with the best of plans and redundant equipment.
Lawyers will encourage families to sue but it is the family's choice, not the Lawyer's.
Property owners are entitled to do what they can to reduce their liability.
If you don't like the way a business treats you, take your business elsewhere.

You're right.

There is a good oriental proverb: "If a monk doesn't like a temple, a monk should leave, not a temple!"

However, I am talking about becoming disenchanted with the law system and abusive lawsuit that drive a property owner crazy in this society.

The dead man won't resurrect thanks to a law suit. It is all about money as you know. There are always some group of people to abuse the law system.

Again, the owner did nothing wrong... It is the fact that we can't change.

Just my 2 bar...

 

[erparamedic]

Wow.... what a thread, and I got the "cleaned up version". That said... there's risks no matter where you dive. Diving, in itself, is a risk. As for Gilboa and Mike... I've never been to Gilboa, but I have spoken to Mike on the phone a few times, as I'm holding an upcoming event there. In speaking to Mike, he has been very helpful, and quite kind. He has also thanked me several times for thinking of "his quarry" to hold the event at. Let's face it... almost every diver I know has been to Gilboa... I just haven't been there yet cause it's a decent drive.... and I haven't had the time/child care for that amount of time.

Gilboa is such a popular dive site that I think it's fair to say that they probably get way more divers visiting than any other local/regional quarry. In the basic rule of numbers, if more people visit Gilboa over the another... then Gilboa will probably have a higher number of accidents. For example- I'm just throwing out numbers here... but lets say Gilboa has 1000 visits in a month, and Blue Springs has 400 visits... Maybe Gilboa has 2-3 accidents and Blue Springs has 0-1 (God forbid the numbers ever reach that high!). Isn't it common sense that those accidents *could have* occured at any quarry... but the fact that Gilboa has more divers has kinda played into the numbers game. (I'm putting aside the fact that Gilboa is deep and could be a factor.) At any rate-- I don't see that Mike is to blame. He does his part to ensure safety. The rest must lie upon the diver to have the correct training and equipment.

Frankly, I'm very excited to be visiting Gilboa this summer... despite the recent accidents. The rules that Mike sets, even if steep (like some have mentioned), make for safer diving. I've seen many, many photos of Gilboa (topside and under) and it appears to be the nicest quarry I've ever seen. My local quarry (45 minutes) charges $20 and is in major disrepair (docks falling into the water) and has no running water, flush toilets or anything. I'd gladly follow some rules, file dive plans if needed, and have a really nice dive environment.

Just my 2 psi and humble opinion.

Back to the OP... I see that the latest accident victim has been released from the hospital. Good news. I certainly hope that he/she makes a full recovery. I'll be interested to hear what the cause of the accident was.

 

[WJL]

Mr. jrockosaurus:

Your post is a good example of the old adage, "Better to to keep your mouth shut and appear ignorant than open it and remove all doubt." Your attacks on Mike and his operation have removed all doubt as to your ignorance.

First of all, there is no excuse for yelling at your customers. Especially for something as small as going 10 mph in a 5.

Mike gets upset when people zooming along the trail run over his divers. If you can't figure that out, and can't keep your lead foot off the accellerator for the two or three minutes it takes to get to your favorite parking spot, then go someplace else.

The guy's a bad businessman and as dudley pointed out, knows nothing about diving.

How is Mike a bad businessman? Because he insists that his rules be obeyed? He imposed those rules to make the place safer, knowing that doing so would irritate self-absorbed weenies. Mike and Jody have shown their business acumen by running the quarry successfully, and upgrading its facilities every year, even with increased safety rules in place. That takes some good business sense to achieve.

As to what you and "dudley" think about Mike's knowledge of diving, you're just showing your inability to think clearly. Mike is running a dive facility. It actually doesn't matter what he knows about diving, although I'm willing to bet it's a good bit more than you.

All he is doing by "approving" plans is opening himself up to more liability. He should provide a liability release and that's it.

Guess what legal eagle? Mike's lawyer does not agree with your opinion. They are putting their money on it. You are just spouting opinions. Do you have any basis, such as, let's say, some Ohio court decision, to substantiate your claim?

It's absolutely asinine for someone who isn't even certified and therefore doesn't know anything about safe diving procedures to say what someone who did actually put the effort in to it that they are or aren't qualified to dive where they please.

Your "argument" here is wrong in every possible way. The premise that Mike is not certified is false. Relying on a false premise invalidates all your conclusions. Putting aside simple logic, you're still wrong. One does not need to be certified to know what are "safe diving procedures." To suggest otherwise borders on the "asinine." If you, from the profound depths of your experience, want to dive where and how you please, without obeying any rules or requirements, you better do it somewhere other than Gilboa.

He's just a dumb Ohio farmboy who happens to own a great dive spot.

Very nice. You have nothing worthwhile to say, so you descend to insults. This comment lets us all know how deeply you've thought about these issues.

I'll be there a lot more when someone finally sues him and turns it in to a nice place to visit.

It's a nice place now without you. While Mike worries himself sick about the people hurt and killed at his quarry, I doubt he's much worried about your predicted lawsuits.

 

[Dan Gibson]

Even when it's some diver stabbing fish, the dock floats or carving up his plane? I'd say that warrants a good *** chewing and a trip in the back of a police car. Yes, those things have actually happened to Mike's property.

As long as one plays by the rules, Mike is as nice as they come. Our group that goes to Gilboa has never been yelled at. In fact he comes around often asking if we need anything. I guess it's all in how one presents oneself.

First of all, there is no excuse for yelling at your customers.

 

[BubblesUp]

As long as one plays by the rules, Mike is as nice as they come. Our group that goes to Gilboa has never been yelled at. In fact he comes around often asking if we need anything. I guess it's all in how one presents oneself.

Very well said! Over the years, my buddies and I have had the same experience and hold the same perception as you. I actually appreciate the rules Mike has put in place and cares enought to enforce, as they make for a better/safer dive site and keep mishaps - above and below the water - to a minimum.

 

[wolverinediver]

I have been lurking around Scubaboard for quite a while and have always appreciated the great insight and knowledge that everyone shares on this site - it's helped me quite a bit in my diving. I was however rather disappointed to see the nasty turn that this thread took about an unfortunate incident with the name calling (don't even want to repeat it) and criticizing the extent a businessman would go to protect his guests (safe speed limits and dive plans).

I don't completely understand the reason for the change in the tone of the thread, but I do feel that BCS and a few other notable members make some very valid comments that are on point. Thanks for the information and insight into what is going on (i.e. gas exchange, some causes of embolisms, etc.) under these types of situations.

I have dove and enjoyed my dives at Gilboa on many occassions and am thankful that people like Mike remain dedicated to keeping such a fine place open for us divers. I'm sure the expense to income ratio would make many others think otherwise about running such an operation. If the rules there ever get to be too much for me to handle (unlikely), then I will exercise my right and make my view known by not diving or spending my money there again.

So back to the original reason for the thread - does anyone have anymore updates on how the other diver is recovering? Is there any other facts related to the dive that are confirmed, and that we can apply a cause/effect or lessons learned type of analysis to that will help other divers?

My thoughts and prayers go out to the other diver, the divers families and Mike.

 

[izee28]

I think anyone thats read on this should understand by now that the guy that owns the pond (mike ) gets to make the rules ie the state of michiagn and the rules that apply to the great lakes or the dnr regulations on the inland lakes YOU WANT TO USE THE WATER YOU FOLLOW THE RUL ES. I'll bet dollars to donuts if it was your butt that was responsible you would do everything in your power to make your facility as legally bullet proof as you could you file a deep dive plan or you dont dive deep.

 

[northen diver]

First of all, there is no excuse for yelling at your customers. Especially for something as small as going 10 mph in a 5. The guy's a bad businessman and as dudley pointed out, knows nothing about diving. All he is doing by "approving" plans is opening himself up to more liability. He should provide a liability release and that's it. It's absolutely asinine for someone who isn't even certified and therefore doesn't know anything about safe diving procedures to say what someone who did actually put the effort in to it that they are or aren't qualified to dive where they please. He's just a dumb Ohio farmboy who happens to own a great dive spot. I'll be there a lot more when someone finally sues him and turns it in to a nice place to visit.

I am a rock climbing guide and I tell my customers the rules. If they ignore these rules, I terminate the days climb WITHOUT a refund. I let the customers know this up front. It is good business, not bad business to keep your customers safe. Mike is PADI certified. For a dumb Ohio farmboy, he is doing alright for himself. I would bet that he would get a pretty decent price for his business. I had taken Boy Scouts up to Gilboa several times to dive and he has always been very friendly towards me and the youth. Jodi had even cooked hamburgers for the kids and wouldnt take a dime for the food. They also gave us some deep discounts on the camping and diving fees. Mike is top notch. I go to Gilboa because of how Mike runs the place. He turned Gilboa into a family orientated place to hang out.

 

[tomdiddle]

I have dove at Gilboa many times and do my deep training there and no doubt that Mike has a nice place there when it comes to docks, jet . tubes, and stuff, but have you checked out the Portage Quarry just south of Bowling Green. Almost 24 acres of water as deep as 70ft but averages around 50ft and more things in it than you can find. Including a jet. Origional quarry equipment,boats,cars, busses the usual as well as a great Nav. coarse. $10 entrance fee. Tank fills 3000 =$6 Plenty of space for get togethers and a Pavillion too. . Plus hot showers and flush toilets and hundreds of camping spots, some with water and electric. Camping is anly $5 a night plus that days admission and the next. Check out thier site. Plus they are having some Very Major diving Events including Legends of Scuba Diving and a world Record attempt all on the weekend of Aug. 10th- 12th. Nice big beach for non-diving family members, 3 sand volleyball courts and concerts including a country concert July 7th. 5 bands-- $12 bucks . Website is http://www.portagequarry.com/

 

[tbeindit]

Yeah, Gilboa is pretty cold. Hopefully, he recovers. Gilboa tries to be as safe as they can, but my favorite diving quote is, "You can minimize the risk, but it's always there"...