And another sale gone, another one down... another one bites the dust!

[Zagnut]

Mike once gurgled from his regulator mouthpiece...
Equipment is going to be sold online they may as well let me do it.

Scubatoys. If I remember correctly, prices are almost identical to Diver's Direct on almost all of their stuff, but they are a regular LDS in Dallas. They are also the LDS I drove 40 miles to spend $4,000 buying my gear instead of buying here in town... all the benefits of a LDS with the pricing of an internet website. They are my LDS and I'm happy with them.

I would think it would be worth looking into.

 

[MikeFerrara]

Zagnut once bubbled...


Scubatoys. If I remember correctly, prices are almost identical to Diver's Direct on almost all of their stuff, but they are a regular LDS in Dallas. They are also the LDS I drove 40 miles to spend $4,000 buying my gear instead of buying here in town... all the benefits of a LDS with the pricing of an internet website. They are my LDS and I'm happy with them.

I would think it would be worth looking into.

We're going the same rout but some manufacturers won't have it. In the beginning we won't be as cheap as some. It will take volume. However just having a bigger market has to increase volume some. There is more to it than having a web site.

 

[djhall]

MikeFerrara once bubbled...
We're going the same rout but some manufacturers won't have it. In the beginning we won't be as cheap as some. It will take volume. However just having a bigger market has to increase volume some. There is more to it than having a web site.

What about used dive gear? I know you can't sell used gear as cheaply as eBay in most cases, but I would think people would be willing to pay a little more for gear that they knew had been inspected, serviced, or repaired by a qualified technician. I know someone is already doing this, but they quoted me a price of $400 on a used drysuit that sells for $700 new and $100-$200 on eBay. It didn't make much sense at that price. I don't know if you can make a profit this way, but I would rather pay $250-$300 for a suit I knew was inspected by a tech than $150-$200 for one where I took my chances on the condition.

 

[MikeFerrara]

djhall once bubbled...
What about used dive gear? I know you can't sell used gear as cheaply as eBay in most cases, but I would think people would be willing to pay a little more for gear that they knew had been inspected, serviced, or repaired by a qualified technician. I know someone is already doing this, but they quoted me a price of $400 on a used drysuit that sells for $700 new and $100-$200 on eBay. It didn't make much sense at that price. I don't know if you can make a profit this way, but I would rather pay $250-$300 for a suit I knew was inspected by a tech than $150-$200 for one where I took my chances on the condition.

The problem is (and again I am assuming we're playing by the rules) we are only a "qualified" tech if the manufacturer says we are and if we're not a dealer for that brand they won't say so. Also where do you get used stuff. We get folks comming in all the time wanting to sell their equipment. However they want a used price on what they paid not a used price on what I would pay. They are usualy insulted by my offer. I can buy it cheaper new than what they will accept used.

 

[MikeFerrara]

yknot once bubbled...


Mike- not sure I follow this thinking. What aspect of marketing gear would encourage a LDS to use brand 'X' equipment while instructing at subpar levels?

OK...
I open a shop. There are many brand x owners in town and brand x is one of the biggies. I want to have the name to help attract the business. Brand x won't let me be a dealer unless I place a $20,000 order. Also brand x says if I also sell brand Y they aren't interested in me. They also tell me that the $20,000 represents a beginning minimum anual volume and they are giving me a break because I am just starting but they expect it to go up or they will be forced to drop me.

How can I sell all this stuff? I do it by getting people diving. But people don't want to spend much on a class and the guy down the street is cheap. I give the class away to sell classes and push brand X to my students. If you sell bread people come around all day looking for it. Dive gear? 99% of the folks driving by don't even know what it is you have to attract them.

Now I have these cheap classes just to create a market for brand X. But...pools are expensive and you have limited access. You are in a position where the class must be done as efficiently as possible. You teach all classes yourself because you can't afford an instructor. Then a student expresses an interest in becomming an instructor. Your burned out and there isn't any money in teaching anyway so you let this low wage newbie (who has only met the minimum requirements) do some teaching. Now we have a product of a fast cheap class teaching fast cheap classes. And it all exists for only one reason TO SELL BRAND X!

Now...I believe a certain type of equipment and way of diving is the best and safest but that isn't the kind of equipment brand X makes. Remember brand X has a reg I simply must have but I hate their BC's and all the clippy junk they make. It doesn't matter though because I must sell brand X even if their bc's leave a diver with gear dangling and with rotten trim. If I tell the the student they might not want brand X so I don't tell them. In fact why mention trim at all? Also the new instructor I mentioned above has no clue. Remember, they are a product of this whole thing.

You want to blame the agency? I call the agency and say these standards are impossible. I can't possibly stay in business teaching all that. I can't afford the pool time. Their other members have a similar problem. We need a large and constant influx of new divers. Do you think they might be tempted to help us out? Divers aren't getting killed in real big numbers and most are once a year divers anyway. The agency is responding to their direct customer ME. I am the paying member. I decide wether to buy their certs and training materials or those of another agency. And...I need to sell more of brand X. If they don't help me I go elsewhere.

Not to worry though, if sales drop brand X will send their rep out (who has never tought diving and only dives in the Caribbean) to counsel you on how to teach in such a way as to sell more of their latast bc with the new pocket and revolutionary zipper and 28 D-rings to clip all their accessories to.

Why don't people get it? I am the direct customer of the agency and I need to sell brand X. I remain a customer of the agency as long as they help me sell brand X. Divers don't usually shop for an agency. Instructors pick the agency. Instructors work for or own a shop that needs to sell brand X. Brand X is the driving force.

No agency has ever presured me for numbers. I have spent many hours being threatened and lectured to by sales reps though. A cert is 12 or 15 bucks to the agency. How much is a reg, BC, wet suit, computer and a bunch of clippies to brand X?

Now we have some online guy selling brand X. I certified you and told you brand X is the way to go and you believe me. But you are a smart consumer you buy online. Brand X still does ok but I need to cheapen my class more because my sales are going down. You showed them didn't you?

I didn't mention the other major customer of the agency but that's a story for another time.

 

[yknot]

MikeFerrara once bubbled...

You want to blame the agency? I call the agency and say these standards are impossible. I can't possibly stay in business teaching all that. I can't afford the pool time. Their other members have a similar problem. We need a large and constant influx of new divers. Do you think they might be tempted to help us out? Divers aren't getting killed in real big numbers and most are once a year divers anyway.

Not to worry though, if sales drop brand X will send their rep out (who has never tought diving and only dives in the Caribbeal) to counsel you on how to teach in such a way as to sell more of their latast bc with the new pocket and revolutionary zipper and 28 D-rings to clip all their accessories to.

What's unfortunate for you Mike (at least as far as your retail business is concerned) is you sound like you have a good deal of integrity and don't wish to compromise your values. What I tend to encounter are LDS's that are the equivilent of a used car dealer. The only reason there are so many cert agencies is money. Who decided in the first place that I need a card to breath under water anyway? How about this one: On the sign out front it says 'Scuba Lessons, $99". Believe it or not, while this is no frills it's a legitimate offer. You won't get a lot of leeway scheduling your class but what do you expect for $99? What do you really need to know? How about "don't hold your breath, this is how to clear your mask, etc. People don't enter this scenario assuming the check out dives are on the AndreaDoria. Also, 2-3 times a year all of the rental gear gets sold off. The package price of the rental gear used is higher than any of us could get it for new from LP but most people by then feel enough loyalty to the shop to not ask questions. Without diverging into topics covering training agencies or the quality of instruction, for most cases this set up works. I'm sure these are the classes you see mucking up the quarry but what do you expect them to learn from pool sessions for $99? Anyway, the divers who will advance beyond the occasional tropical swim are your target audience. How else will you create a market from nothing? I bet in order to have 20 hard core customers you need 100 people that will dive your group get togethers a few times a year. You might have to train 500 people to find that 100. Most people will never dive beyond 50 feet and then only on vacation, in warm water, whatever. Excellent bouyancy isn't a skill these people will value anyway so why get so frustrated when rec divers don't have these skills? Think about this: for $99 your instructor will be "Bob". He may not be the best instructor but then what do you want for $99? Oh, you want expert, in depth instruction? Then you need "Mike" and private instruction. This is going to cost you "fill in the blank". Let the market decide. Along the way you will probably sell some gear of a caliber below what you would own but I am sure most of it is more than enough for 90% of the divers in the world.

 

[Zagnut]

Sounds like manufacturers really jerk you all around. Any ideas on what we as a diving community can do to help get the manufacturers to change their relationship with LDS's?
(..Besides paying outrageous prices for gear. That may help keep the LDS from going belly up, but it only pepetuates the current situation)

Grass Roots, Boy Howdy!!...United We Stand!..Divided We Fall!! :bang:.......whoops,..whipped myself into a frenzy there...

Seriously though, after reading all the replies and getting a better idea of exactly what the LDS's go through delaing with manufacturers, any ideas on getting "brand X" to treat the LDS better?

Mike, you sound like a good LDS owner... I wish you were in my town. Then, I wouldn't have to drive 40 miles each way.

Fight the good fight, brother!

 

[Genesis]

and get other shops - and divers - to do the same.

It wouldn't take much, really. If you could organize just one metro region the shiat would hit the fan at corporate FAST.

Organized boycotts get the attention of even BIG companies. For smaller firms, like ALL the scuba makers, it would be like setting off a bomb at their corporate headquarters in terms of speed of response.

Its not impossible.

It DOES, however, take effort.

 

[MikeFerrara]

yknot,
Good points. It's kinda funny in a way.

 

[yknot]

Zagnut once bubbled...

Grass Roots, Boy Howdy!!...United We Stand!..Divided We Fall!! :bang:.......whoops,..whipped myself into a frenzy there...

Seriously though, after reading all the replies and getting a better idea of exactly what the LDS's go through delaing with manufacturers, any ideas on getting "brand X" to treat the LDS better?

Mike, you sound like a good LDS owner... I wish you were in my town. Then, I wouldn't have to drive 40 miles each way.

Fight the good fight, brother!

When this thread started I thought that it really wasn't the consumer's responsibility to straighten out these wayward manufacturers. After all, we can still get the stuff cheap from LeisurePro. What is becoming apparent is that some of the manufacturers don't treat their dealers with much respect. Why worry about a small business owner when you can sell your product line to someone else a few miles away. Perhaps we do need to be more proactive as consumers in this case. I keep thinking of ScubaPro as a prime target. Why? I can't think of another line as devious in their methods. While trying to sign dealers on as an exclusive line, they are winking at the online sales. They have also been very vocal in denying warranties for online sales. Policy or not, online is no worse than buying something used. How dare they dictate your warranty conditions in that way? Write a letter to their parent company. State how disappointed you are in their attempts to keep you from buying such fine products at prices similar to our friends in Europe. Remind them that if they don't quit restricting our access to these items you will tell every diver you know what a bunch of cheats they are. Scuba gear is still very dependant on word of mouth. If we can get a line like this to cave see how fast the smaller players get in line.