And another sale gone, another one down... another one bites the dust!

[Zagnut]

I also agree with Djhall. I've learned a ton more about equipment, diving, techinque, gear configurations, whatever..by doing my own research and diving with others, than I EVER did by my LDS giving me valuable advice. Maybe that isn't the case in some of the better shops out there, but it is in my case. That "valuable and life saving advice" argument doesn't fly with me. I'm not asking for my LDS's advice and so they shouldn't charge me (in higher gear prices) for advice I'm not requesting or receiving. That's fair isn't it?... Like Genesis keeps saying, if you want my business, you are going to have to find a way to get it other than giving me all that "valuable" advice (a.k.a "Sea Quest is the only brand worth having..everything else is crap")..'cause I don't want it. Get creative and you may get my business, otherwise just watch your ProQD just keep hanging on that hanger.

If someone is too lazy or too busy to do their own research, more power to them and hooray for their LDS. Especially with the internet as a source of info, the numbers of educated consumers are probably on the rise and LDS's are going to have to adjust their practices accordingly or see declining sales.

 

[Northeastwrecks]

djhall once bubbled...

Wait... what was I thinking? Lawyers already charge you a "consultation fee" to tell you if they will take your business and how much they will charge if they do.

Wait a minute. Have you actually experienced this or have you just heard about it.

I'm a little surprised because I'm not aware of any reputable firm that does this.

My initial consultation is without charge. I only go on the clock when (1) we progress beyond the initial consultation into substantive advice; (2) it appears that the potential client is trying to milk me for free advice when they have not intention of retaining me (a particularly annoying event); or (3) the potential client is seriously wasting my time and won't leave.

Regardless, I tell them that their consultation is over and that they need to decide whether to retain me or not because they are going on the clock.

If the client wants an evaluation of a case prior to deciding whether to proceed (very common in intellectual property cases), then I will usually charge. However, those are cases when I'm looking at several hours of work.

 

[ScubaScott]

gedunk once bubbled...
I'm not sure i follow what your saying here.

What i'm saying is providing an estimate is not a no cost proposition for most businesses. Time is money, the paper the estimate is written on is money, the phone number you called is money .... etc..... In my business we get less than 10% of the bids we put out there. Sound bad? It is, but it is the nature of the market (construction in our area) we live in. We don't specifically charge for our estimates but if we did, every one of our estimates would be lower. We don't charge for estimates because thats not how things have been done in our area.

I'm honestly not trying to flame you here but your fooling yourself if you don't think you ultimately pay for things like "free estimates" or worse yet advertising for most produces. There are costs that must be covered by profit margins of products and services that are sold. A pretty basic business principle that many new business owners don't understand and a big reason most new businesses fail in the first couple years.

Nothing dishonest about covering the cost of doing business by marking your products up to hopefully more than cover your cost.
It's just good business to cover your costs and stay in business.

Zagnut - there is no such thing as a free estimate. I do "free estimates" for our government to build highways, to Joe Blow redoing his driveway. I show up, give you your estimate, and go back to my office - no cost to you. If you decide to use my company for the service, you will be essentially paying for my time through the purchase of our products. Its exactly the way Gedunk said above. If you don't choose my company, thats fine. If we get approximately 20% of the quotes I do per year, were having a good year. But don't fool yourself into thinking that someone actually gives "cost free quotes" to customers...... the costs are always picked up in product purchases

SS

 

[djhall]

awap once bubbled...
Yes, there is one major flaw in your proposal - telephone inquiries. But that could easily be corrected by either going with an unlisted number or, better yet, go for the 900- number and turn that into profit. And I guess you could charge for air while they browse - that is another thing the LDS sells and customers have already shown their willingness to buy.

I like it. Of course, the bank has already done this. Have a problem with your account? Give us a call... ony $3.99 to talk to a real live teller. Why a $3.99 charge to talk to a teller on the phone? Because it costs money to provide a teller when you could just use the ATM instead. Why does it cost $1.00 to use the ATM? Because it isn't our ATM. Why isn't it our ATM? Because now that we can charge you $3.99 to call a teller and $1.00 to use a different ATM, we closed half the branches with real tellers and sold the ATMs to the company that charges you $1.50 to use them. What's that... If we closed the branches, fired the tellers, and sold the ATMs, why do we charge you a fee to use someone elses ATM? Because we provide them for your convenience.

WHAT!! How the h*** do they say that with a straight face???? The only thing less believable is hearing their computer tell you "your call is important to them" while it is being ignored in the order in which it was received.

 

[yknot]

How would legal services and scuba gear retailing ever be considered as comparabe? Legal consultation is by appointment. The rules are usually made clear prior. When i see a "Lawyer-R-Us" in the mall, where you walk in and ask to see the lawsuit behind the counter, then make the comparison. Maybe the LDS's should just charge admission at the door. That way you will have an income whether I buy something or not and I won't feel like I'm stealing your valuable time asking the price of something.

 

[djhall]

Northeastwrecks once bubbled...


Wait a minute. Have you actually experienced this or have you just heard about it.

I'm a little surprised because I'm not aware of any reputable firm that does this.

My initial consultation is without charge. I only go on the clock when (1) we progress beyond the initial consultation into substantive advice; (2) it appears that the potential client is trying to milk me for free advice when they have not intention of retaining me (a particularly annoying event); or (3) the potential client is seriously wasting my time and won't leave.

Regardless, I tell them that their consultation is over and that they need to decide whether to retain me or not because they are going on the clock.

If the client wants an evaluation of a case prior to deciding whether to proceed (very common in intellectual property cases), then I will usually charge. However, those are cases when I'm looking at several hours of work.

Ahhh... oopps... you got me there. My apologies. This is actually something I have heard from friends who have hired lawyers for various reasons. I must concede that the stories, especially considering that they are lawyer stories, may be greatly exaggerated. One never knows for sure if they weren't actually there. It could also be quite possible that their lawyer was not exactly the most reputable in town. I am sure your knowledge of the business is much more accurate than mine.

What you are stating sounds fairly reasonable to me. Consultation is free, but you can't do substantive case work during the free consultation. I guess the same people who want you to wrap up their case for free as "conversation" during a dinner party would expect you to do the same as a "free consultation."

 

[Zagnut]

Djhall asked...
Thus, any contractor who charges a bid fee ought, practially and ethically, to submit a lower bid than they would if they didn't charge a bid fee? Is there something else you were trying to say????

No. That's pretty much what I was trying to say.


Scubascott, I'm in agreement with you. We do business the same way you do. My point was the industry standard is to roll the estimating costs into the price of the bid. So, if someone is going to charge me an "up front" fee for their estimate, then they better damn well deduct that upfront fee from the amount of their bid, or else I'm going to interpret it as a greedy contractor trying to screw me out of every dime he can, and I'll use another contractor. Nobody around here charges an "estimate fee". Of course the fee is in their bid as overhead costs, so if they try to hit me with an additional "estimate fee" , I'm gonna say, "Nope" because I know it's already in the cost of his bid.

 

[MikeFerrara]

yknot once bubbled...
MikeFerrara- sorry to hear about your lease. I still would like to ask you why you are retailing scuba in the market you are in and attemting to lay any blame on LP and gear manufacturers. No one will pity me if I locate the headquarters of my bikini company above the Arctic Circle and subsequently fail. I can understand opening a small business in the area you and your family live but when that market won't support your plan who is really to blame?LP isn't doing anything any of us couldn't do. They just seem to do it cheaper. If you do manage to become an online reseller I would buy from you. Perhaps the value you could offer over LP then would be better online product info.

I don't blame LP. I am however frustrated with the equipment manufacturers. They demand high volume but have so many policies that limit our market. I limit my own numbers by not playing the games some shops do and the manufacturers limit it by only allowing in-store sales. Another problem is what it takes to get a big name brand. If you want SP they want to tell you what other brands and how much of it you can have. They want you to be all SP. A small shop needs to be able to select individual products they can sell not be committed to and have a large investment in an entire line.

The manufacturers garantee their sales by attempting to force us to buy a bunch of stuff we don't want in order to get say...one of their good selling regs. They force the risk on us. And then their are the service policies. If I wanted to service a SP reg I first must buy into the entire line. That's a big investment to get a little low profit service business. IMO, they should pay the rent if they expect the place to exist to advertise for them. It isn't that there isn't a market for a shop where we are the problem is the model doesn't match the marke. I suppose it worked well years ago but no more.

In the current model everything and I mean everything in most shops is a loss leader except equipment sales. Everything is there for one reason and that is to sell equipment. The internet is making the markups required to make this work impossible. You can't charge more for classes because of the competition. You can't bring in more in service because you have to first buy the product lines (that you can't or sell). This is the primary reason for the fast cheap classes. There are plenty of student the trouble is turning it into a profit.

All I have said assumes you are playing by the rules and doing what the agency, insurance company and the manufacturer wants you to do but cheating the system is not that easy .

Genesis has suggested using corp structure for protection and serviceing what you want and not taking orders from the insurance company. Being able to service anything would certainly bring in business but will corp structure really be adequate protection. Even if I am six companies I am only one person. Also what about the diver? If something does go wrong and the company doing the service only has $100 of parts as assets and no insurance is that ethical? Why should such steps be required. IMO, the equipment manufacturers need a wakeup call.

 

[Lawman]

because all of you are in another world! The
ScubaBoard world. The world of the diving
fanatic that buys a lot of diving crap.
For ordinary people, diving is a hobby just
like golf or skiing. They buy diving gear with
the idea that they are now equipted for their
hobby.Not anticipating spending thousands
of dollars more on new stuff. If you buy skis
you don't do it with the idea that you're going
to buy another pair next year.
With hobbies we are willing to pay more for
the equiptment. Thus the $700 pair of skis, the
$100 bottle of wine, the $350 sno-board, the $1100 shotgun. The price
is part of the snob appeal of the sport. Admit it.

A small % of divers are keen eyed ScubaBoard shoppers.

 

[yknot]

MikeFerrara once bubbled...

Genesis has suggested using corp structure for protection and serviceing what you want and not taking orders from the insurance company. Being able to service anything would certainly bring in business but will corp structure really be adequate protection. Even if I am six companies I am only one person. Also what about the diver? If something does go wrong and the company doing the service only has $100 of parts as assets and no insurance is that ethical? Why should such steps be required. IMO, the equipment manufacturers need a wakeup call.

Maybe, maybe not. In my limited experience a corporate shell does buy you some individual protection. As far as ethical, is it fair to stick your hand in a running lawn mower and then sue the blade manufacturer? Regardless of the steps you take to educate people in the proper use of something, someone, somewhere will prove you can't protect for everything (Never argue with an idiot- they will reduce you to their level and beat you with experience).