And another sale gone, another one down... another one bites the dust!

[djhall]

ScubaScott once bubbled...
But don't fool yourself into thinking that someone actually gives "cost free quotes" to customers...... the costs are always picked up in product purchases.

Okay. That is simple ecconomics 101. Not really much to argue about that. But, how is that different from saying that the purchasing customers ultimately pick up the costs of keeping the store open for the customers who go into Target, check out their prices, and then decide to buy at Costco because they are cheaper? Should non-buyers pay a browsing fee for the service of comparison shopping? If more people decide to buy at Costco, then Target either needs to lower their costs of doing business, find a way to provide a better shopping experience, or go out of business. The argument that Target is providing a service for which customers should pay simply by being open so customers can comparison shop, even though they ultimately buy at Costco, or not at all, seems a little bizzare. Yet, I don't see how your situation is fundamentally any different. You have a fixed cost of being open for business, namely your time, which will be spent either doing contracting work if people like your estimates, or providing more "free" estimates if people like your competition's better. If you don't win enough estimates, your profits plunge, you can no longer afford to provide more estimates at competitive rates, and you go out of business. Target has a fixed cost of being open for business, namely keeping the store open, which will be spent either making sales if people like their prices, or providing more "free" comparison shopping if people don't. If too many people elect not to buy, their profits plunge, they can no longer afford to offer products at competetive prices, and they go out of business. How is your situation essentially any different from any other business?

 

[ScubaScott]

Zagnut once bubbled...


Scubascott, I'm in agreement with you. We do business the same way you do. My point was the industry standard is to roll the estimating costs into the price of the bid. So, if someone is going to charge me an "up front" fee for their estimate, then they better damn well deduct that upfront fee from the amount of their bid, or else I'm going to interpret it as a greedy contractor trying to screw me out of every dime he can, and I'll use another contractor. Nobody around here charges an "estimate fee". Of course the fee is in their bid as overhead costs, so if they try to hit me with an additional "estimate fee" , I'm gonna say, "Nope" because I know it's already in the cost of his bid.

Absolutely..... there is a difference between covering costs and being greedy. Any contractor that didn't deduct his "estimate" fee, would not be working for me......

SS

 

[Northeastwrecks]

djhall once bubbled...
I guess the same people who want you to wrap up their case for free as "conversation" during a dinner party would expect you to do the same as a "free consultation."

Actually, I try to give people at dinner parties the benefit of the doubt by giving them some very general ideas of the way that we could proceed and suggesting that they schedule an appointment for a time when I have my books and other resources available and when I can devote my attention fully to their problem.

The really annoying ones are the people who annouce that they (1) will do this themselves once I tell them what to do during the free consultation; (2) have retained another attorney, but they want to check his advice (for free) against mine; (3) have a friend who is a law student/legal secretary/paralegal who will handle things once I decide how to proceed; or (4) in one memorable case, claim that they have a Constitutional right to a lawyer even though they can't afford one and, congratulations, I'm it.

I'm beginning to find this entire debate depressing. I learned today that the local community market where I live is closing. This is an old time store that sells great product with a personal touch. Their meat and vegetables are prime quality. The owner knows us by name and will make helpful suggestions.

IMHO, the value is ten-fold over the supermarket. However, I'm apparently in the minority, because he announced that the store is closing because he is losing too much business to the large stores. Their meat is inferior, their vegetables s*ck, but they are a few cents cheaper.

I'd hate to see this happen to the LDS over a few bucks. So I'll keep on buying from them.

 

[djhall]

Lawman once bubbled...
With hobbies we are willing to pay more for
the equiptment. Thus the $700 pair of skis, the
$100 bottle of wine, the $350 sno-board, the $1100 shotgun. The price is part of the snob appeal of the sport. Admit it.

Holy crap! I own one pair of $300 skis, no wine, no snowboard, one pistol I bought used, and I only ski a couple times a year, even though I only live two hours from Tahoe because the lift tickets are too d*** expensive. My scuba gear is a MK2+/R190, a SeaQuest Quickdraw BC w/ AirSource, and an Aladin Air computer/console, all of which I bought used off eBay, along with a Henderson wetsuit I bought on 40% off closeout. Grand total spent on all my dive gear so far: $750 including rebuilds.

Snob appeal??? I don't think so! Of course, I've also spent the last four years putting myself through college. Guess I'll just have to keep going through law school!

 

[ScubaScott]

djhall once bubbled...

Okay. That is simple ecconomics 101. Not really much to argue about that. But, how is that different from saying that the purchasing customers ultimately pick up the costs of keeping the store open for the customers who go into Target, check out their prices, and then decide to buy at Costco because they are cheaper? Should non-buyers pay a browsing fee for the service of comparison shopping? If more people decide to buy at Costco, then Target either needs to lower their costs of doing business, find a way to provide a better shopping experience, or go out of business. The argument that Target is providing a service for which customers should pay simply by being open so customers can comparison shop, even though they ultimately buy at Costco, or not at all, seems a little bizzare. Yet, I don't see how your situation is fundamentally any different. You have a fixed cost of being open for business, namely your time, which will be spent either doing contracting work if people like your estimates, or providing more "free" estimates if people like your competition's better. If you don't win enough estimates, your profits plunge, you can no longer afford to provide more estimates at competitive rates, and you go out of business. Target has a fixed cost of being open for business, namely keeping the store open, which will be spent either making sales if people like their prices, or providing more "free" comparison shopping if people don't. If too many people elect not to buy, their profits plunge, they can no longer afford to offer products at competetive prices, and they go out of business. How is your situation essentially any different from any other business?

Dj - I wasn't saying my buisness was different from any others...... Perhaps I didn't get everything Zagnut was saying, but I was simply explaining that my cost are being paid for by product purchasing. Whether you choose my company or not, the costs of the "free" service that so many people want is picked up essentially by customers. "Free" is really a catch word. Whether a potential customer goes with us or Dicks Paving down the road, is decided upon by the customer. We don't charge an upfront fee and never will. If it comes to a point where we don't have much buisness and skyhigh costs, well, were doing something wrong.....

SS

 

[djhall]

MikeFerrara once bubbled...
I don't blame LP. I am however frustrated with the equipment manufacturers. They demand high volume but have so many policies that limit our market. I limit my own numbers by not playing the games some shops do and the manufacturers limit it by only allowing in-store sales. Another problem is what it takes to get a big name brand. If you want SP they want to tell you what other brands and how much of it you can have. They want you to be all SP. A small shop needs to be able to select individual products they can sell not be committed to and have a large investment in an entire line.

The manufacturers garantee their sales by attempting to force us to buy a bunch of stuff we don't want in order to get say...one of their good selling regs. They force the risk on us. And then their are the service policies. If I wanted to service a SP reg I first must buy into the entire line. That's a big investment to get a little low profit service business. IMO, they should pay the rent if they expect the place to exist to advertise for them. It isn't that there isn't a market for a shop where we are the problem is the model doesn't match the marke. I suppose it worked well years ago but no more.

Mike, you have my heartfelt sympathy here. The manufacturers are a major source of the problems facing LDSs today. I sure would not want to be a dive shop owner right now.

Best of luck with your business. I am sorry to hear about your lease.

 

[djhall]

Northeastwrecks once bubbled...
Actually, I try to give people at dinner parties the benefit of the doubt by giving them some very general ideas of the way that we could proceed...

Aw shucks. Be careful Northeastwrecks, you might give lawers a good name!

Northeastwrecks once bubbled...
in one memorable case, claim that they have a Constitutional right to a lawyer even though they can't afford one and, congratulations, I'm it.

Wow... think of the possibilities if that were true! Constitutional right to free speech, so you're going to give me free airtime. Constitutional right to keep and bear arms, so you're going to give me that gun. Hmmm... declaration of independence says I have a god given right to the pursuit of happiness, and I can't afford to pursue happiness, so you're going to........

 

[MikeFerrara]

I find the subject depressing but not hopeless. If the manufacturers want their products represented by diving pros they will have to change the way they do business. Equipment is going to be sold online they may as well let me do it. Now they have it both ways. They get us to do their advertising and LP to do the sales.

A couple of weeks ago my wife was speaking with the CEO of an equipment manufacturer. He claims there are some big shake-ups comming. The manufacturers are used to having control. They don't treat us like a customer they treat us like employees. They can get away with it because there is a small number of them and most are the same. If a dive shop wants to make money they buy into a big name and do what they are told. There is still money in it for those that wish to do it. They need to get hurt in the pocket. Right now the LDS takes the blame and the manufacturer still makes the sale. No risk to them at all.

If you are the type to buy dolphin safe tuna I wish you would be as choosy about what equipment you buy not just who you buy it from. All you need to do is watch the worst OW class you can find and note what brand equipment the students are using.

 

[yknot]

MikeFerrara once bubbled...

If you are the type to buy dolphin safe tuna I wish you would be as choosy about what equipment you buy not just who you buy it from. All you need to do is watch the worst OW class you can find and note what brand equipment the students are using.

Mike- not sure I follow this thinking. What aspect of marketing gear would encourage a LDS to use brand 'X' equipment while instructing at subpar levels?

 

[MikeFerrara]

Now we are getting to the heart of the matter but I'm crunched for time so I'll say more a little later