And another sale gone, another one down... another one bites the dust!

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Out of curiosity I looked for info on ScubaPro. Seems they are owned by Johnson Outdoors (nasdaq sym JOUT). Total market cap of 73mil (per nasdaq) and they sell more than just scuba equip. My thoughts: ScubaPro probably a small percentage of company sales. Probably not capable of extensive legal defense against FTC. Look at the other items Johnson Outdoor sells. Has any one had retail experience with their other products? I think some of their other products are avail. online. Is the scuba gear corp. parent policy or due to regional distributors taking advantage of small undercapitalized LDS's?
 
Genesis once bubbled...


If yours failed that you bought from me, I'd give you another one and I would fight with the manufacturer about the warranty issues. It wasn't your problem.

Mine came set up, ready to plug in and go. Theirs did not.

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What do you think we do. From th minute someone buys a reg from me they have a reg. If theirs has to get sent back, if we must order what they want or whatever. If they are going diving they have one to use. I was in Florida when a customer had a Halcyon light go dead. I tool the morning off of cave diving to drive to halcyon to get a replacement battery, which I had to buy pending their examination of his. After charging they decided it was ok so I have a battery I don't need. They think he plugged it in backwards drawing the voltage down too low. If the batv is too low the charger won't try to charge it.


Not long ago a guy said he was going to buy a reg with his bp/wing. I gave him one hell of a package price even though he couldn't pay for the reg untill after his trip. I also decided it would be a shame for him to have to dive with a crappy rental. I took him at his word and let him take my reg to Mexico for a week. He brought mine back but never bought the reg. I didn't even get rental on the reg. I sold the bp/wing for a markup that doesn't come close to compensating me for the time I spent with this customer.

I could tell stories like this all day. The fact is nobody thinks they will need those services and won't pay for them. However if the need arises they sure expect them.


All the dry suits we have sold have been to new dry suit divers. A class comes with the suit. I have sold suits for as little as a $200 mark up and in two cases lost money because there were fitting problems and I ate the cost of the fixes. Go see if LP will do that.
 
Genesis once bubbled...
The $300 profit - and 60% mark-up - was with a 20% discount from MSRP.

Yes but I didn't make that sale. I didn't say I never have made a markup of over 20% I said we have been selling gear for 20% over cost often and we have. The markup on defog now is great.

And if I did sell a suit for that 300 I would end up providing a class which involves pool rental and the profit would be much less. Oh yes and we would end up trimming the seals and we would likely have to through custom fitting and the time it takes to do the measurements also.

And most of our new drysuit divers have been buying online for what we pay. The last prospective dry suit customer backed out for an e-bay suit.
 
again, realize that I just had this conversation with a LDS.

I tried to find a way for them to justify their mark-up. I gave it my best shot. I might have bought it from them with a written promise to immediately swap under warranty. I WOULD have done so with the nitrox card.

They wouldn't do either!

At the end of the day they offered me nothing more than an internet transaction does.

They had no extra value to put on the table. Just a higher price.

That's how they lost the deal.

That's how you lose the deal.

I like the people there, but liking someone isn't a reason to fork over an extra $100 or more. There's gotta be more to it.

Its not just "price", although that's the easy way to look at it.

It is value received for price paid.

If you offer no more value for the price paid, then obviously you won't get the sale unless you can meet or beat the price. That ought to be obvious to anyone, and bleating about it is silly.

If you can't make the value equation work, its because the bundle you present to potential buyers, all-up, isn't one that they value sufficiently to give you the money rather than SimplyScuba, DiveInn, LP or some anonymous person on eBAY.

You can either solve that problem, or you will eventually go out of business. That's just how it works.
 
MikeFerrara once bubbled...


A for instance. Had a guy in last night who had a whole list of stuff he was going to buy in preperation for his PPB class. Ankle weights, hard weights and some other trinkets. This week I sure could have used a sale and the little things are what we get good markups on. I recommended he not buy any of it until we got in the water and found out what he needed. I often show divers little tricks that negate the need for $100 weight pouches. If a diver follows my recommendations they will have a set of gear that they won't ever need to replace. They may add to it but nothing will be wasted. They save the cost of going through many rigs like I did. Much of it is gear configuration ecommendation that eliminate the need for all the junk that I would make a good profit selling but has little real value to the diver.

Maybe YOU should be out there explaining this to OTHER dive shops, because ScubaDon and I were in the LDS where we got our OW cert. a while ago. The owner came by and asked if we needed any help. We said no thanks, just looking. His response was, "As long as you're buying, you're welcome to look.

A friend of ours was just in there renting gear and the LDS said they hadn't seen us lately. Wonder why.

I bet you could have saved me a ton of money. I got high end stuff, from the net, much with warranty, but its not the sort of set-up you just explained. Not one that is customized to my needs. I figured out what I needed (wanted) by reading stuff here. No one ever suggested at the dive shop that they would do that.
 
MikeFerrara once bubbled...


The markup on defog now is great.


No kidding, there. $7.00 for a tube of goo. :whoa:

Anyone know what's in there? One of my LDS' said they paid people to spit in the bottles. YUK.
 
Genesis once bubbled...
again, realize that I just had this conversation with a LDS.

I tried to find a way for them to justify their mark-up. At the end of the day they offered me nothing more than an internet transaction does.

They had no extra value to put on the table. Just a higher price.

That's how they lost the deal.

That's how you lose the deal.

Its not just "price", although that's the easy way to look at it.

It is value received for price paid.

If you offer no more value for the price paid, then obviously you won't get the sale unless you can meet or beat the price. That ought to be obvious to anyone, and bleating about it is silly.


Genesis,

I have been following your arguments. What value do you place on the intangibles of the LDS. By this I mean the total knowledge package you receive in terms of advise not just on product selection, but also on technique and classes.

Let me expand. If I use my own LDS as an example, part of taking a class or classes from them includes ongoing support. I am welcome to "audit" any course I have taken if there is something I feel I have missed or want a refresher (for example if I want to go out with the rescue classes for annual practice or spend some time with the AED and oxygen unit, all I have to do is ask). I believe I am also able to selectively "audit" classes I have not taken to see if I am interested in taking the full course.

Any equipment I have purchased came with the directive that they would make any problems right and they supplied a DM for a check-out dive with the new gear to ensure everything was adjusted correctly. Every weekend, I have the opportunity to go diving with the instructors (and the course directors) who continue to give advise and technique tips.

For me, this is something I cannot put a specific dollar value on, it is part of the "package" I got when I chose to support them. Can I go in and talk product for hours and then buy it all on-line at better prices, sure. The overall relationship I have created with this LSD however precludes me from doing it. I don't have any problem spending money to support good small businesses who in turn are able to support their employees and create a really great dive community.

Just my 2 cents.
 
SMKChef once bubbled...


No kidding, there. $7.00 for a tube of goo. :whoa:

Anyone know what's in there? One of my LDS' said they paid people to spit in the bottles. YUK.

Many threads on this before BUT.....
Johnsons Baby shampoo, never failed me.

Sorry Mr Ferrara.:wink:
 
Let me expand. If I use my own LDS as an example, part of taking a class or classes from them includes ongoing support. I am welcome to "audit" any course I have taken if there is something I feel I have missed or want a refresher (for example if I want to go out with the rescue classes for annual practice or spend some time with the AED and oxygen unit, all I have to do is ask).

These are classes you've bought and paid for. This doesn't tie into other products and services you might have purchased elsewhere (or there, for that matter)

Now the promise to "make it right" and to do check-out dives with you when you purchase new pieces of kit has value. For me, the latter doesn't have much value, but the former has a LOT of value.

In fact, as I've noted, the LDS might have made the sale had they been willing to promise an instant swap if the unit failed while in warranty. That kind of support has value! Whether it was worth the entire price gap is a difficult call, but it would have been considered. The Nitrox card would have done the job. There probably are other things they could have done that would have done the job as well.

The point was that they declined to offer anything beyond being a box-pusher. They want to earn that profit not from superior service, but just for carrying the line and being there.

This shop doesn't allow this kind of "auditing" of classes, nor does it provide the kinds of services that you, and a few others, have pointed out. One guy here was talking about his shop allowing him to use their fill station - no charge - if he wants. Now THAT kind of thing has VALUE!

I can come up with dozens of ways for the LDS to make the value equation work, with the utility - and value - of each possibility varying from customer to customer.

However, what doesn't work, almost universally, is not providing ANY of that, and simply selling product out the door, with no real local support - oh sure, they'll ship a defective unit back to the manufacturer for service, but they won't take responsibility for the failure themselves, give you another one, and deal with the manufacturer themselves, keeping you from being disadvantaged or inconvenienced in the meantime. It is the latter that constitutes value - the former is just a matter of stuffing something in a box and mailing it! That's worth what - $10 per failure for postage?

LDS's who want to know why LP is selling so much stuff, and why their putative customers are eschewing them for online ordering, need only look at this issue. You don't get paid for displaying things in a case - anyone can do that online. You also don't get paid for not having items in stock, expecting people to pay you a premium price to do nothing more than order a product and have it pass your hands for 15 minutes. That doesn't fly either.

How do you establish value?

Set up a customer satisfaction policy of some kind. I understand that you can't take things back in many cases if they've been used, but you can certainly stand behind the warranties and offer immediate replacements or "like for like" loaners during the warranty period, with you dealing with the manufacturer on the issue. (No, allowing someone to use your $200 rental reg set while their $1,000 titanium one is in the shop due to a warranty problem doesn't cut it!)

There are a number of things that can be done here, and the LDSs I've had experience with have simply refused to do any of them.

Its unfortunate, but its how things work around here.

YMMV, but frankly, I think LP, SimplyScuba and Diveinn will be getting a lot more of my money in the future...
 
JO is hmm...

Johnson Outdoors is a conglomerate that owns these brands:

Scubapro, Aladin, Uwatec, SnorkelPro, Leisure Life, Ocean Kayak, Carlisle, Dimension, Escape, Extrasport, Necky, Minn Kota, Eureka, Old Town, Camp Trails, Silva.

Maybe dive gear isn't their biggest division but they certainly have weight in the recreation arena.
 
https://www.shearwater.com/products/perdix-ai/

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