Analysis vs Condolences (split from CSSP thread)

[wolf eel]

[snuggle derek..why are you bent on asking theses questions over and over again?so you can lay the blame on her?you said no one has laid blame ..sure not in so many words but lets face some here have already laid the blame ..only to themselves ..thats all..what diff does it make if she drove or not or where her gear was..you only want an answer so you can lay blame ..well you know theres nothing rong with saying hey someone made a mistake..but who gives anyone here the right to lay blame on anyone..oh i guess it does make some people feel good to lay blame on someone..they get there kicks doing things like that i suppose..]

Listen.
This is a key point not for blame but to see how far had she tried to get help.

I know to you this seems like pain mongor but to me it is away to see what went wrong and how far. If I completley screw up and just leave my buddy on the bottom then surface with gear on and then dive and over still with my gear on to the shore then walk up and load my gear into the car then drive and get a dive shop worker to come back with me and I am then able to point that diver to the vary spot where he is somethings wrong accept that.

I just re read your response. To say

[ theres nothing wrong in saying hey someone made a mistake..but who gives anybody the right to lay blame]

The part that a person is dead is not just a "hey I made a mistake !" What if ? She screwed up completley sorry but true (fact) a guy is dead who may have had a chance if she had responded in a more responsible way. The fact that gear was not found floating in the lake says she could have moved even faster by ditching her gear. Thats all. At the shore if her gear was lieing about that would also say she moved as fast as she could others may learn from that.
Derek

 

[Kim]

I don't see how you can formulate objective rules that will sort "proper" speculation from "improper" speculation. In every accident, there is ALWAYS some level of missing or incomplete information. This necessarily implies that in EVERY accident analysis a certain amount of speculation is inevitable. If you are going to analyze an accident, you are going to have to speculate or guess about unknown conditions. The only way to eliminate speculation completely is to prohibit all attempts at analysis.

This is why personally I can see the point of view that is suggesting two different forums. One forum for condolences, and one for the kind of analysis that is happening in this thread. It's easy to say that people don't have to read things they might not like - however if an accident is posted where there is a personal interest from people who do read SB it's obvious that they would not simply ignore such a post. I am personally of the view that an open Condolences forum and a more restricted 'Discussion' forum could be a solution to this. However it's not up to me. I do think though that a formal request for such a forum should originate from the Suggestions forum. As it stands now a lot of the discussion in this thread as to why it's a good idea, or not, could probably be more suited to such a formal request.
For the rest I have been simply trying to explain the intent of the rules as I see it, as they stand now. There is no reason to have a fight about nothing - or because of misunderstandings. FWIW some of the arguments out of the 'Discussion' camp seem to have merit to me - especially when they are to support a new forum, rather than be applied to the present one.

 

[snuggle]

again you have absolutly no idea what happened or why and your telling me that its all her fault?what if the guy had a massive coronary on the bottom?even if she brought him to the surface he would probably be dead before they hit the surface..and tell me..how was she supposed to respond?and your saying that she should have surfaced and disgarded her gear then swim to shore??your out of your mind on that one..you sound like you could have done everything perfectly..well guess what..your wrong about this one..you werent there so please if you hve an opinion thats ok but dont go laying blame and presume what she should have done this or that differently..you sure are stuck on that question about where her gear was..it doesnt matter where her gear was..what matters is that someone died and some people are all over the place with this one...funny thing is it seems to be the norm..at first its condolences.then hmm what happened then it goes to whos to blame..laying blame accomplishes what i askthe readers here..NOTHING thats what..it doesnt bring the diver back and it makes the person IF they are responsible for it feel even worse..we are all human and humans make mistakes that do in some cases cause death though not intentionally they still cause them nonetheless..it happens and theres nothing you or i can do thats ever going to change that.even the most carefull diver can make a mistake..the next mistake could be made by anyone of us even you..

 

[lamont]

Well now you are attempting to read my mind. I am not against speculation and guesses in their proper place. I am also not against finding fault based on facts. I am against finding fault based on speculation and guesses. I believe that the statement in the sticky,
"Restrict comments to what happened and how to prevent it".
is clear enough.

I simply disagree with that policy. If you restrict comments to only those which are known 100% to be facts, then you might as well be honest about it and state that the policy is to only allow condolences threads and be done with it.

 

[lamont]

funny thing is it seems to be the norm..at first its condolences.then hmm what happened then it goes to whos to blame..laying blame accomplishes what i askthe readers here..NOTHING thats what..

you see laying blame. i see trying to understand the chain of events -- or possible chain of events -- in the accident and understanding where that chain could have been broken to prevent, or better respond to, the accident.

it doesnt bring the diver back and it makes the person IF they are responsible for it feel even worse..we are all human and humans make mistakes that do in some cases cause death though not intentionally they still cause them nonetheless..it happens and theres nothing you or i can do thats ever going to change that.even the most carefull diver can make a mistake..the next mistake could be made by anyone of us even you..

yeah, and i already stated that if i'm in an accident where i die, or where my buddy dies, i seriously hope that it gets discussed and analyzed. there's probably some way that i'm at fault or something that i could have done better, and i hope someone points that out publically. i hope someone else might learn from it.

 

[wolf eel]

[snuggle again you have absolutly no idea what happened or why and your telling me that its all her fault?what if the guy had a massive coronary on the bottom?even if she brought him to the surface he would probably be dead before they hit the surface..and tell me..how was she supposed to respond?and your saying that she should have surfaced and disgarded her gear then swim to shore??your out of your mind on that one].

Dude even in the event he did have a heart attack so ? She would not know that he is dead untill they are at the surface right. Yea you will find my gear laying about not in the back seat as it will fall to the ground as fast as I can get it off !! Even in the water if it is going to be a bit of a swim count on it.

Again I am not blaming just asking others may learn.

[you sure are stuck on that question about where her gear was..it doesnt matter]

It does. It shows how trained she was and how much of an effort she took or better yet how well trained where they ?

[it doesnt bring the diver back and it makes the person IF they are responsible for it feel even worse]

No kidding why are you drawing this thread to your side if you do not like the channel change it. If they are responsible they should feel bad thats reality. It bites some time

..[we are all human and humans make mistakes that do in some cases cause death though not intentionally they still cause them nonetheless..it happens and theres nothing you or i can do thats ever going to change that.even the most carefull diver can make a mistake..the next mistake could be made by anyone of us even you]

I know but that does not change a thing. At the same time you will never stop speculation as we are only human.
Derek

 

[snuggle]

wolf eel im only going to say this once..dont call me dude because thats not who i am and if you think im going to believe that you would take off your gear then swim then your crazier then i thought..wether or not she discarded her gear has no relevence whatssoever..oh yeah thats right they teach you to ditch all your gear in class?..yeah ok whatever.even if your taking a rescue course i cant see them telling you to ditch your gear..get real ok..dont bother replying because i wont reply back..its a waste of my time..if someone says white youll say black..you think your always right and youll argue and argue and make yourself think your right..and lamont i wont even go there with you..talk to wolf eel im sure that youll agree on alot of things..

 

[wolf eel]

[snuggle
You think im going to believe that you would take off your gear then swim then your crazier then i thought..wether or not she discarded her gear has no relevence whatssoever..oh yeah thats right they teach you to ditch all your gear in class?..yeah ok whatever.even if your taking a rescue course i cant see them telling you to ditch your gear..get real ok..dont bother replying because i wont reply back..its a waste of my time..if someone says white youll say black..you think your always right and youll argue and argue and make yourself think your right..and lamont i wont even go there with you..talk to wolf eel im sure that youll agree on alot of things.]

I am going to respond you need to talk to somebody. I think you have guilt about something that happened in your past. I am sorry for this. for you.

You say nasty things about me and others but try to make me out to be some bad guy ?

It may just be she did what she could thats all. But in the scheme of things we should be training divers better then or giving out cert cards to those who are trained to a higher standard.
Again if somebody does not like the chat don't chat. It's too bad for all this bad attitude. It could still be she killed him for the insurance nobody knows ?
OK Dude. I say that to everybody anywhere.

Derek

 

[Scuba]

Given the two valid, strong divergent opinions, it's a good idea to have a forum for posting accident notices. It can include published, witnessed reports, and possibly accounts heard from other’s without incorporating analysis, along with condolences. A sub-forum next to primary one can be used for speculative accident analysis.

There may be those directly affected who may wish to read certain accounts and refrain from comment. Actions or lack thereof may be attributed which are false, important factors omitted, or the simple fact that when a tragic event occurs, some people will respond with incorrect decisions, or fail to respond altogether, due to traumatic shock. There is no need to increase the pain. There is a time for analysis and learning, grieving time may not be the best time for this for most people. Is it? Any psychologists out there with info on this?

On the other hand, accident analysis, already well explained, is useful in understanding and avoiding future accidents.

I suspect most poeple, directly involved or not, may be curious and wish to at least read some of the threads in both forums. The advantage of both types of forums is that it gives everyone the option to choose. Two such forums provide a haven for both ideologies to freely indulge without distressing the feelings of other's

Since both of these avenues can be easily accommodated, the questions is - why not?

 

[Squalus]

It seems that some in here take things personal when discussing analysis and debates have been heated needless to say. There may be mitigating circumstances on why they are so negative, only they know the truth as to why. Personally, I would hate to say is that, if we as a whole can learn from a tragedy then so be it, talk about it (part of a healing process with handling death) and learn, be educated and better divers from it. From these maybe we can make a change on basic certification in scuba, to ensure that the future generation of divers are more apt to make better decissions while diving, how to handle emergencies when they arrise. I would encourage those who are negative to this to go and find out why they are so against the topic of analysis. Death is a natural process in life sometimes a little earlier than it should through negligence and ignorance that's a fact of life. It is human nature to err on the side of ignorance at times.