An industry that is in decline

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Genesis once bubbled...
They do not HAVE to stock, sell and service lines that have these constraints.
So, the three "good" companies are all they need to carry? And they can stay in business that way? You admitted that you couldn't stay in business with any of your own business models in an earlier post.

Hmmm...so now you're just talking to hear yourself talk.
 
don't play cards with a stacked deck.

There are more than three "good" manufacturers. In fact, there are a lot of them - you just don't hear their names, because they're the folks who REALLY make the gear you buy (but someone else's name is on it.)

The point, however, is why would I or anyone else want to play ball in a den full of snakes? I got out of the Internet biz in no small part due to the same kind of issues; the "industry" was rapidly turning into a house of cards and I saw a collapse in the offing.

It came.

Some of it was due to the same general kind of nonsense - unsupportable business plans and intents - that goes on here. The difference was that there was insufficient "leverage" to keep people in line, and when the base of the tree started to wobble all the pieces came apart. The Worldcom scandal, for example, came as no surprise to me - I knew about it and kept FAR away from it.

If I wanted to put together a chain outfit like Diver's Supply, I could put together a system that would work. But I have no desire to go that far with it. I may change my mind down the road, but as things stand right now, its not interesting enough to me to do it.
 
Scubaroo once bubbled...
What type of decline do you mean - economic decline, or a broader decline in terms of quality of divers and training?

I guess both, I picked up that quote on another thread and wondered the same thing as you. That is why I put the question to the board.

It seems to me quality of divers and training, being done right, could only help the economic side.

A problem I see is people get certified and never dive again. The industry at large needs to focus on getting them in the water and keeping them there.

Training so as to really make a diver comfortable to dive would go a long way.
 
As someone not connected to the dive industry, here is my viewpoint as a heads-up and critical consumer, skeptic, and scientist (who likes having data). Your mileage may vary.

Participation/Retention Decline? Picking up and the sport then dropping out
The first thing that pops into my mind is: how does the immediate lose of divers after certification compare to other mainstream sports? If I had more time I would look up the stats, but my hand wavy assumption is that all sports, especially equip intensive ones, are going to to have a certain percentage that take some lessons and rarely do the sport again. The example that comes to mind is skiing. Here is an example of an industry that has low "learn-to-ski" prices. The hope is that the mountain is getting you hooked on the sport and is therefore investing in a new skier buying lift tickets, rentals, gear, and more lessons. In this way it parallels the relatively cheap cost of OW courses. Yet in skiing many take the cheap "learn to ski weekend" and may ski a total of 3 times in their life. Bottom line: SCUBA could be average in retaining newbees.

Economy
I feel that the economic decline has to be due to the economy going south and will all average out if you looked a 10 year time block. Others said it well....

Manufactuers and Mark-up
Even though I'm often one of the guilty, when I step back, I realize that I should be so shocked that the LDS price structure is how it is. From the outside, it looks alot like the car industry. Ford makes car, Ford sells car to dealer, dealer sells to driver and makes a profit. Is there a drastic different in the price margin... I dunno? Is there overhead differences to justify price margins... I dunno? Yes there is still the possibility for price gouging, but no-one seems up in arms about car dealerships.

LDS vs WWW
This topic has been beat to death. But from what I've heard and experienced the internet vs brick-and-morter dive shops each have their pros and cons. The economics of lower overhead means lower prices while higher overhead means higher prices. I don't think either the LDS or WWW will be driven out of existence in the long run. The bottom line is WWW shops are very good at marketing their niche on the market: low prices. Where LDSs have been losing is a not playing up their niche: the personal connection. I don't know much about marketing, but I know that you have to play to your strenghts. Some LDSs play up this strength, some don't (and some don't have this strength at all). The economics of supply, demand, and the power of different price points comes into play here... but it's been too long since I took econ for me to do it justice.

AND MY POINT IS: Customer Service
The niche that the LDS fill (or a better equiped to fill) is personal connection to the diver. I buy my "big stuff" from the LDS because I can ask them questions about things or debate pros and cons of item A vs item B in real time. When something breaks, or more importantly, MIGHT be broken or IS BREAKING, I can get some instant gratification advice. I can probably get it fixed quicker. If there is a problem, it's alot easier to get it addressed when you can go and look the salesperson in the eye. And they are only a short drive away in most cases. For me the benefits of that personal attention are what allow me to justify paying a premium (although I will shop around LDSs)... I will pay for a portion of that overhead.

BUT... is this personal connection uniform from LDS to LDS? No. Sometimes it is not consistent from salesperson to salesperson or season to season. This is way I have "fired," "layed off," or "put on suspension" various dive shops in my area. The ULTIMATE Bottom line: Dive shops are not evil, their prices are the way they are due to economics, and in the long run a shop that cares about the sport, me, and earning my trust more than it cares about winning my money, will in the long run end up earning my business.

(Brevity is just not in the cards for me today.)Edited for tag errors
 
Genesis you really are disturbing.

When are you going to jump back to that other thread and answer for yourself.

In response to your comment. I live in the midwest, so there are no dive operators just shops.

As you know in business some companies will have loss leaders. Things like training and air fills for example. The way to make up for this loss is to make a little on the markup from equipment sales. You want the LDS that supplies you with cheap air, and the other sundry items that wouldn't order online (who wants to pay $5 s&h on a $2 bottle of defog?) to give you a price competitive with the online stores that a)have little overhead b) have a much larger market.

Do you deny the right of people who own dive shops to make a living?

How do you propose I get my tanks filled if all the LDS's close?


I may save money on dive gear, but now I have to buy a compressor, etc. to make up for the shops going out of business.
 
Genesis once bubbled...
that circumventing laws that are intended to prevent a particular behavior (in this case, vertical price restraints) is not a good practice "attacking someone's livelihood"?

You don't need to do that to make money in a business, you know. Tens of thousands of businesspeople don't undertake such practices, and yet they do just fine.

The usual argument against LP is that they're a "low cost" operator. That, of course, ignores reality - conveniently so. New York real estate, and its business climate and expense, is arguably the highest in the United States. I know - I've done business there. Its punitively expensive to be in NY.

It really is rather simple, at the end of the day. You have an industry that has gone from a cottage business, where there were no choices for the consumer, to one where consumers are becoming educated, the Internet is empowering them to talk to one another (and to buy from other sources!), and this change is not a genie that can be put back in the bottle.

The dive shop that operates on a puppy-mill mentality, and those who do it know who they are, have a serious problem. Blaming all this on a cyclical economic downturn is nonsense. Oh sure, the economy has gone through one of its normal cycles. The key word here is normal. The economy does that. If you, as a businessperson, do not have a way to make things work out for you during the normal economic cycles, you won't be eating for very long off your endeavors.

The historic reaction in this industry, as can be seen by the increasing "enforcement" activity over the last year or so by the manufacturers, has been to close ranks and try to squeeze their dealers when times get tough, in an attempt to insure that the pain is felt "equally" and nobody profits at anyone else's expense.

The problem is that this strategy is only effective if you can plug all the leaks, and for obvious reasons that can't be done.

Then add into this at least one EU investigation into dealer relations practices that I'm aware of - and by the way, the EU takes a VERY dim view of pricing restraints - and you've got trouble. Perhaps really big trouble.

The bottom line is that LP, DiveInn and Simply Scuba are not going to go away.

The dive industry TRIED to get rid of a "direct" marketer or SNORKELS once upon a time. Through a dealer association called "SRA", they attempted to organize a blackball campaign of the manufacturer. The FTC got involved and sued the SRA, and the organization ended up withering on the vine; the result was ultimately a default judgment against them.

Rather than learn, the manufacturers and retailers decided instead to get cute, and find loopholes in the law. Nobody denies they exist - they do. But exactly how big they are, and exactly how successful sticking your neck through a loophole is and will be, is never knowable in advance.

What is knowable is that from my point of view and in my opinion such an action is ethically bankrupt. Of course that's just my opinion - yours may differ.

This same kind of screaming and reaction to mail order sales (there was no Internet then) took place 20 years ago in the photography industry. I was there. I was shooting semi-pro at the time, buying both hardware and expendables (paper, chemicals, etc) in large volume. I had a camera shop refuse to honor a warranty on a mail-ordered item. That was very intelligent of them - it cost them over $3,000 worth of paper and chemical sales over the next six months from me alone. Oh, they made the same argument that the LDSs make now - "where 'ya gonna get your paper and chemicals if you don't support us?" I'll tell 'ya where - mail order. Yeah, the quantities to make the shipping worth it were a lot larger, so I pooled with a couple of other shutterbugs and we bought in larger lots. So what?

Two years later, they were gone; closed up. Why? Lack of business. Simple. The same story was repeated all over the country. Go ahead and try to find the little local camera shop with a full-line of cameras from "point and shooters" to high-end SLRs (now both in digital and film.) In the main, you can't. Nearly all of them are gone.

How many other people did they drive away? I don't know. What I DO know is that they drove me away on hardware sales with fixed-price, full-list practices, and they lost my expendable business (which up until that point they had nearly exclusively) over their hard-nosed attempt to "stick it" to me for being disloyal on my hardware buys, and they threatened me with claims that I could not possibly get what I needed to keep shooting pictures without them - just like the LDSs make the argument today about fills.

In short, they acted exactly like most dive shops act now, and they did it with the same collusion and wink and nod from the camera makers that the scuba manufacturers supply today.

The LDS operators would do well to learn from the past, lest they end up like the local camera store. All closed up. Now, hardware is primarily sold online; a few specialty retailers remain, but not many. Few people buy their "real" cameras from the full-price retailers. Most buy from 17th Street or similar. The local store cut off his own nose and bled to death right in front of me.

There ARE solutions that keep the LDS in business.

But they all involve having the LDS attitude changing from one of believing that divers need THEM to understanding that they need DIVERS.



we are in a free market and the buyer definately has a choice to take his business wherever he sees fit.

However, with most decisions like this, there are consequences. I value that there are three shops within 15 minutes of my house, I can use to get a fill. That number will decline becuase too many people are using the online shops. My options as a customer will inevitably go down, becuase of it.

BTW: I can't imagine being threatened by a web site as poorly done as the diversunion self righteous piece of @#$%@#.

I would like to hear Genesis describe a business model that allows the local services divers need, industry people to make a living, and consumers to get the bargains they so richly deserve because they read some opinion a guy had on a web site?
 
divermasterB once bubbled...


I value that there are three shops within 15 minutes of my house, I can use to get a fill. That number will decline becuase too many people are using the online shops. My options as a customer will inevitably go down, becuase of it.


Three diveshops and online dealers sharing the market. With open competition, that market could probably be covered by a single LDS who could do enough volume that, along with the services only the LDS can provide, would allow effective competition with the online dealers on a direct price basis. Austin, TX supports 15 to 20 shops. I believe it would be better for both customers and retailers if pricing competition were allowed to weeded that down to about 5 by a process of survival of the fittest in an open market.

And manufacturers who have the ma & pa LDS by the doorknob would probably have to change their tune a bit also.

Yeah, a little culling might produce some very beneficial results.
 
And manufacturers who have the ma & pa LDS by the doorknob would probably have to change their tune a bit also.

Yeah, a little culling might produce some very beneficial results.

Exactly.

And if you and a couple of others are TRULY active divers (e.g. 100 dives a year or more within reasonable driving distance where you can bring your own tanks) then a small compressor between four or six people becomes VERY viable. Basically, to make it work economically you need to come up with a combination of divers to own the unit that between them will put about 400 tanks a year worth of gas through it.

If you only want "air", for example (no Nitrox) my compressor costs about $1/fill, with nearly all of that being filter expense. Do the math - at $4/fill for local air, you have $3/tank in recovered capital cost.

If you fill 400 tanks a year, that's $1200 a year in recovered capital.

The compressor ($2500) is paid for in two years, at which point it has run about 400 hours - that's four (one pint) oil changes and about halfway to the first valve inspection. You're not all that far past the break-in period!

If you dive Nitrox then it becomes even more viable, as the "capital fund" gets about $6-7/tank filled deposited in it, but the additional cost for the hyperfilter (assuming you buy one; I did) is only $1100. So your total time to pay back the compressor investment is now about 18 months and 300 hours of runtime.

There are solutions to the problems that claimed.
 
awap once bubbled...

And manufacturers who have the ma & pa LDS by the doorknob would probably have to change their tune a bit also.

Yeah, a little culling might produce some very beneficial results.
Colorado Springs. Two shops. Full to almost full retail at both.

So now Genesis is taking the stance that LESS competition brings down prices!

Wow. I guess whatever fits the argument of the minute, eh Gen?

Roak
 
I'm taking the position that price protection NEVER helps retail prices come down.

Lack of price protection MAY produce fewer shops. The less-viable ones will close. This is not a bad thing. The lack of price protection and competition (its global these days, not just local!) still keeps the local dealer honest.

How much diving is there near Colorado Springs? :)
 
https://www.shearwater.com/products/peregrine/

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