Air2 or SS1
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HatchetJoe
Contributor
My SS1 breathes as well as my T2 tried this at 118 feet. I was considering mounting it on a Seaquest BC however the seaquest BC has a corrugated hose that is both a hair too short and very stiff. I contacted Seaquest regarding a softer and longer setup and got a polite blow off.
FishOutUvH2O
Contributor
My SS1 breathes about as well as my ST1 primary and infinitely better than my wife's old Zeagle Octo-Z. The Zeagle guys said they could tune the reg to be better breathing, but it would risk free-flowing. A problem my SS1 hasn't encountered, even in a strong current. My wife switched to an SS1 (the Octo-Z is a back-up now) and besides the easy breathing, she loves how much easier the buttons are to use on the SS1 over the Octo-Z. The SS1's buttons are easier to push and much bigger. She says she's better able to control both inflation and deflation better now.
Most of the corrugated hoses, valves, and elbows on just about all BC's these days are pretty generic. There's a good chance that someone uses the same diameter hose that you need and that would fit right on the Seaquest pull-dump or bladder elbow attachment. The hose is usually just held-on by zip ties and maybe a little rubber cement. Maybe the hose on your current BC would fit?
Hey Joe,
Go here and scroll down toward the bottom of the page, I think they have what you are looking for.
Couv
Dive Rite Air Cells (Wings) for Singles and Doubles
Go here and scroll down toward the bottom of the page, I think they have what you are looking for.
Couv
Dive Rite Air Cells (Wings) for Singles and Doubles
HatchetJoe
Contributor
Couv,
Thanks, that is where I was headed anyway, I 'll end up with a 16" and take 2" off as the 12" is a hair too short for using an alternate air source is I have to actually use it for anything other than inflation/deflation.
Joe
Thanks, that is where I was headed anyway, I 'll end up with a 16" and take 2" off as the 12" is a hair too short for using an alternate air source is I have to actually use it for anything other than inflation/deflation.
Joe
NWaquaman
Guest
Inch by inch my gear gets closer to DIR.
First: In a real OOA situation, your primary will be ripped from your mouth and not soon returned. In a low on air situation it is fabulous to have a longer hosed reg to donate. 4-5ft is fine. Mine is 5 ft. and twice in the last 6 months I have dontated my octo with 5ft hose to low on air divers. It gives enough working room to swim along holding their tank valve and make for a slow ascent without having to kiss the low on air diver as you go up. (try it with short hoses and you will see what I mean by kissing.)
IMNSHO air II and the like are BS for real out of air, get to the surface situations. Even if it did breathe well under stress(which most of them truly don't), How the heck do you really control your bouyancy with an OOA diver on your hose and your inflator in your mouth??
First: In a real OOA situation, your primary will be ripped from your mouth and not soon returned. In a low on air situation it is fabulous to have a longer hosed reg to donate. 4-5ft is fine. Mine is 5 ft. and twice in the last 6 months I have dontated my octo with 5ft hose to low on air divers. It gives enough working room to swim along holding their tank valve and make for a slow ascent without having to kiss the low on air diver as you go up. (try it with short hoses and you will see what I mean by kissing.)
IMNSHO air II and the like are BS for real out of air, get to the surface situations. Even if it did breathe well under stress(which most of them truly don't), How the heck do you really control your bouyancy with an OOA diver on your hose and your inflator in your mouth??
Totally agree, if a diver is totally OOA they are going to take the working reg out of your mouth, like it of not, and they won't be giving it back any time soon.
Totally disagree, they breathe fine under load and are good at depth. If you have a panicing diver then you control your bouyancy with their CD not yours.
you should have minimal air in yours at the start, after they puul your reg out of your mouth you grap a hold of them, retrieve your Air2, dump the air out of your CD then put start to use, grap their inflator and dump their air. All the time hold on tight as and flare to slow down your ascent. They will be swimming flat out for the surface.
A danger of a long hose around your neck is the sequence of events that could happen when the panicing diver goes for your primary, they may be in a blind panic and could be behind you when they reach over your left shoulder and rip the primary out of your mouth while holding on to your tank valve with their right hand, you now are being strangled by your primary.
All options at this point are bad as when you put your octo in your mouth you will trap the primary with your octo hose.
Without a doubt in a non panic situation a long hose is so much more comfortable when sharing air with a cooperating diver.
In a real emergency having the panicing diver 7 ft above you swimming for the surface with both fins kicking the h**l out of your head may not be the optimum solution.
Don't assume that just because he now has your primary he will stop wanting to be on the surface, and will instantly remember his training.
that may not happen until he is on the boat or back on-shore.
Well thought out and well stated!
I was taught that in an OOA event that the air donor takes control of the dive and the accent by grabbing the shoulder strap of the OOA dives BCD. An OOA diver is easier to control (if circumstances require it) in close proximity. If the diver is a few feet away (given a long hose) you may not be able to get to their buoyancy controls or dump valves. Since standard recreational diving is an entry point to SCUBA chances are you'll run into more divers with highly limited experience. More so than in technical specialties.
So if I'm a donor in an OOA event first thing I want is air for myself even if I've just had my primary reg ripped from my mouth. The second thing I want is control of the situation. The safe second is fast and easy to get into my mouth and the short primary reg hose mean the OOA diver is within reach for me to dump the air from their BC and grab their shoulder strap.
A lot has been made of the lack of buoyancy control during a OOA event using a safe second but it really isn't and issue. All you are doing is dumping all air and swimming up at a safe rate.
As with any peice of gear knowledge of the gear and it's proper use and special requirements is needed to practice and prepare for an emergency. Preparation and practice is essential to a positive outcome in these situations.
As for the breathing capabilities of safe seconds some are quite good and others are lousy. In general having tried a few different models I feel this issue has been over stated. None of the models I have tried breaths as well as my Delta IV primary yet some breath as well as many mainstream primary reg models.
Now I can see how this isn't practical for cave or wreck diving these are specialties for divers with far more experience and training. Hopefully when these divers have an OOA event that extra training and experience will help them maintain some composure under pressure and react well. Because of the added risk of the environments they dive in, the long hose becomes a necessity for a single file exit from the environment before making an accent.
In standard recreational diving the need for the long hose does not exist. Without this risk induced by the overhead and/or space limited environment the long hose itself may induce a marginally greater risk without any safety return on the investment. This risk is reduced with the shorter hose of a standard regulator hose and standard octo. Removing the standard octo hose from the equation and adding in the octo inflator further reduces the amount of hose that can get caught up and reduces the risk of an octo being dragged through sensitive environments.
Hmm. there is some good stuff in this thread and then there is a whole lot of total C__p.
I have used an octo. I have used an Air 2 and I have used a long hose with bungeed Octo. I have also donated air 3 trimes in real world OOA scenarios and have had a panicked diver grab me by the tank valve and try to drown me. The point being, I know what I know from somethiing other than reading it on the internet or hearing it from an instructor/DM/etc.
1. It is correct an integrated inflator/alterate air source (hereafter called Air2) was designed to be used by the donating diver. The intent has always been to donate the primary when using an Air 2 and it makes sense anyway as the majority of real world air shares start with the primary getting ripped out of the donating diver's mouth. Short story - everyone one should be training and configuring to donate the primary. Period.
2. In that case, two things makes sense - an octo on a bungeed octo where it is easy to find and reach or an Air 2 that is also easy to find and reach as it is on the end of the inflator hose you use about 30 times per dive. Both of these also have an advanatge as they are located in areas and or are used often ensuring they are not fille dwith sand, silt, etc. In contrast looking for a regular octo somewhere in the "golden triangle" is a really bad idea when you just exhaled then got mugged and now have panicked diver fighting to keep from loosing the short hosed primary out of his or her mouth and in the proecess interfering with where your octo normally is and with your efforts to find it. Odds are it got knocked out of the holder and is now somewhere behind you anyway. Short story - the Air 2 is NOT the worst option when it comes to octos - the regular octo in the "golden triangle" is.
3. A proper long hose primary reg is long enough that you are not going to get strangled with it by a diver holding onto your tank valve after mugging you over your left shoulder. Just not gonna happen if the hose is that tight, he is no longer going to be holding your tank valve, and you just roll out of it. Plus, if the panicked diver is on a long hose the odds are a lot better he will feel less panicked as it will not feel like it is about to be pulled from his mouth. I have yet to ever share air with any diver who did not almost immediately see the advantage of gas sharing with a long hose. In 10 years I am confident that a 5' primary hose will be the recreational standard just as the 7' is today the technical diving standard. To get there from here however, will require debunking all the misconceptions and unfounded accusations about long hoses - the same process that had to happen when the octo was adopted over buddy breathing and emergency swimming ascents.
4. If a panicked diver on your long hose is headed for the urface 7 ft above you - dump the air in your bc to stay neutral to slightly negative then give the hose a nice sharp jerk - it will come right out of his or her mouth. You can then re-engage them from behind and ride their tank as you would with any panciked diver and give the primary back to them for the ascent whiel you also manage their inflator. Short story - no one is gonna get drug to the surface on a long hose.
5. A 36 to 40 inch primary hose is stupid. The thing will loop way out over the shoulder and at best makes a great partner to the console that is probably dangling and beating the reef. Cleaner is better. Either go with a 5 to 7 ft long hose or stay with a short 22-28" one as mixing your philosophies does not really work.
6. An Air 2 does have merit in some configurations. I use one along with a 7' long hose primary on my tropical single tank wing and plate. It allows me to have only 3 hoses on the reg, all of which route straight down, making for an incredibly clean hose routing on what is already an incredibly clean BP/wing. A 4th hose, as would be required for an octo, puts 2 hoses pointing out to each side with common 2 or 3 port per side reg designs like the Mk 17, Apeks X___, Aqualung legend, Poseiden, etc. with much less clean and tidy hose routing resulting.
7. An Air 2 does require a fairly long corrogated inflator hose to preserve a full range of head movement, so keep that in mind as a 12" inflator hose will not provide enough lenght. This is the most common basis for objecting to the Air 2. I prefer a shorter inflator hose myself, but it is a compromise I make on my tropical wing in order to take advantage of the Air 2's other benefits in that configuration.
8. Adding and dumping air with an Air 2 is not hard even when it is in your mouth being used as a reg. You can use the buttons (large one near the end where the gas vents is the dump, the small one near the inflator hose is the inflator - it is not rocket science and is in fact intuitive after minimal practice. You can dump by either using the button or, with a pull dump, by just pushing or pulling out on the half loop formed in the hose between the shoulder dump and the inflator in your mouth. Doing that lengthens the hose and opens the pull dump. Again, it is incredibly easy and is not rocket science. If you can't manage it, you need to seriously reconsider whether you should be diving at all.
9. The Air 2 (this time referring specifically to the Scubapro Air 2 or TUSA clone) is an excellent balanced inflator that is superior to just about any other unbalanced inflator as it allows very precise air additions.
10. The Scubapro Air 2 uses the same basic downstream unbalanced poppet design as the R190 and many other popular octos, just with a smaller diaphragm. If it is properly tuned, it will offer excellent reliability and will deliver more than enough air to any recreational limit. Many are tuned on the heavy side, but they can deliver and relibale performance in the 1.2" to 1.4" of water inhalation effort range.
11. Long hose routing is very clean with the hose close to the body where it will not bang the reef etc. And the safety benefits are A) the ability to share gas without the stress of doing it on a short hose, where the second stage is at risk of being pulled loose - increasing a divers tendency to panic) B) the ability to swim and ascend normally while sharing gas and C) the real world OOA compatible "donate the primary" philosophy that accompanies the use of a long hose primary.
Cliff notes for the whole post - a long hose porimary with either an Air 2 or a bungee necklaced octo make sense, a short hose primary with a traditional octo does not. It is just a dinosaur that has not yet had the good grace or common sense to lie down and die yet due to too many instuctors who continue to promote what is now a very dated and sub optimum idea.
I have used an octo. I have used an Air 2 and I have used a long hose with bungeed Octo. I have also donated air 3 trimes in real world OOA scenarios and have had a panicked diver grab me by the tank valve and try to drown me. The point being, I know what I know from somethiing other than reading it on the internet or hearing it from an instructor/DM/etc.
1. It is correct an integrated inflator/alterate air source (hereafter called Air2) was designed to be used by the donating diver. The intent has always been to donate the primary when using an Air 2 and it makes sense anyway as the majority of real world air shares start with the primary getting ripped out of the donating diver's mouth. Short story - everyone one should be training and configuring to donate the primary. Period.
2. In that case, two things makes sense - an octo on a bungeed octo where it is easy to find and reach or an Air 2 that is also easy to find and reach as it is on the end of the inflator hose you use about 30 times per dive. Both of these also have an advanatge as they are located in areas and or are used often ensuring they are not fille dwith sand, silt, etc. In contrast looking for a regular octo somewhere in the "golden triangle" is a really bad idea when you just exhaled then got mugged and now have panicked diver fighting to keep from loosing the short hosed primary out of his or her mouth and in the proecess interfering with where your octo normally is and with your efforts to find it. Odds are it got knocked out of the holder and is now somewhere behind you anyway. Short story - the Air 2 is NOT the worst option when it comes to octos - the regular octo in the "golden triangle" is.
3. A proper long hose primary reg is long enough that you are not going to get strangled with it by a diver holding onto your tank valve after mugging you over your left shoulder. Just not gonna happen if the hose is that tight, he is no longer going to be holding your tank valve, and you just roll out of it. Plus, if the panicked diver is on a long hose the odds are a lot better he will feel less panicked as it will not feel like it is about to be pulled from his mouth. I have yet to ever share air with any diver who did not almost immediately see the advantage of gas sharing with a long hose. In 10 years I am confident that a 5' primary hose will be the recreational standard just as the 7' is today the technical diving standard. To get there from here however, will require debunking all the misconceptions and unfounded accusations about long hoses - the same process that had to happen when the octo was adopted over buddy breathing and emergency swimming ascents.
4. If a panicked diver on your long hose is headed for the urface 7 ft above you - dump the air in your bc to stay neutral to slightly negative then give the hose a nice sharp jerk - it will come right out of his or her mouth. You can then re-engage them from behind and ride their tank as you would with any panciked diver and give the primary back to them for the ascent whiel you also manage their inflator. Short story - no one is gonna get drug to the surface on a long hose.
5. A 36 to 40 inch primary hose is stupid. The thing will loop way out over the shoulder and at best makes a great partner to the console that is probably dangling and beating the reef. Cleaner is better. Either go with a 5 to 7 ft long hose or stay with a short 22-28" one as mixing your philosophies does not really work.
6. An Air 2 does have merit in some configurations. I use one along with a 7' long hose primary on my tropical single tank wing and plate. It allows me to have only 3 hoses on the reg, all of which route straight down, making for an incredibly clean hose routing on what is already an incredibly clean BP/wing. A 4th hose, as would be required for an octo, puts 2 hoses pointing out to each side with common 2 or 3 port per side reg designs like the Mk 17, Apeks X___, Aqualung legend, Poseiden, etc. with much less clean and tidy hose routing resulting.
7. An Air 2 does require a fairly long corrogated inflator hose to preserve a full range of head movement, so keep that in mind as a 12" inflator hose will not provide enough lenght. This is the most common basis for objecting to the Air 2. I prefer a shorter inflator hose myself, but it is a compromise I make on my tropical wing in order to take advantage of the Air 2's other benefits in that configuration.
8. Adding and dumping air with an Air 2 is not hard even when it is in your mouth being used as a reg. You can use the buttons (large one near the end where the gas vents is the dump, the small one near the inflator hose is the inflator - it is not rocket science and is in fact intuitive after minimal practice. You can dump by either using the button or, with a pull dump, by just pushing or pulling out on the half loop formed in the hose between the shoulder dump and the inflator in your mouth. Doing that lengthens the hose and opens the pull dump. Again, it is incredibly easy and is not rocket science. If you can't manage it, you need to seriously reconsider whether you should be diving at all.
9. The Air 2 (this time referring specifically to the Scubapro Air 2 or TUSA clone) is an excellent balanced inflator that is superior to just about any other unbalanced inflator as it allows very precise air additions.
10. The Scubapro Air 2 uses the same basic downstream unbalanced poppet design as the R190 and many other popular octos, just with a smaller diaphragm. If it is properly tuned, it will offer excellent reliability and will deliver more than enough air to any recreational limit. Many are tuned on the heavy side, but they can deliver and relibale performance in the 1.2" to 1.4" of water inhalation effort range.
11. Long hose routing is very clean with the hose close to the body where it will not bang the reef etc. And the safety benefits are A) the ability to share gas without the stress of doing it on a short hose, where the second stage is at risk of being pulled loose - increasing a divers tendency to panic) B) the ability to swim and ascend normally while sharing gas and C) the real world OOA compatible "donate the primary" philosophy that accompanies the use of a long hose primary.
Cliff notes for the whole post - a long hose porimary with either an Air 2 or a bungee necklaced octo make sense, a short hose primary with a traditional octo does not. It is just a dinosaur that has not yet had the good grace or common sense to lie down and die yet due to too many instuctors who continue to promote what is now a very dated and sub optimum idea.
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