Air Fill Argument

[3-Ring Octopus]

The intelligent reader notes that he (the author) points out that bad things happen on BOTH sides of the argument, Reefhound...but I guess that intelligent reader isn't you. So sad.

I agree with the author's last comment, however. "...shop where you want, bash who you want, just dive safe and promote the sport."

I personally support my LDS...and in return...they give me deals. And air. Heck..some of the deals may not even be "deals"..but I like them, so I shop there. Some of the internet stores are great, I'm sure...but they don't toss me a beer and stand around and chat when I purchase things from them. I also couldn't get the gear I'm diving from an internet retailer. I dive primarily Aqualung/SeaQuest/Suunto...which cannot be sold online...EVER...PERIOD. (except second-hand on EBay..but then warranty is null and void...blah) Same with ScubaPro. I like the gear from both companies...so I won't be shopping online any time soon.

Cheers,
Austin

 

[ReefHound]

The intelligent reader notes that he (the author) points out that bad things happen on BOTH sides of the argument, Reefhound...but I guess that intelligent reader isn't you. So sad.

Yeah, he lumps the "horror LDS stories" in with the clause about shark tales, while claiming to have seen the internet fraud. The intelligent reader notes that is hardly presenting both sides fairly.

And the point of the recent posts was the baseless allusions to knockoff frauds sold online. No online advocates have bothered to allude to LDS fraud. We could go that route, dredge up all the stories of regs returned from service missing parts or still containing the original corroded parts, or raise questions about what unscrupulous tactics a desperate LDS owner facing bankruptcy might resort to.

Funny, all the accusations seem to be by LDS advocates who throw out their baseless allegations then whine about LDS bashing when someone so much as protests high LDS prices. You guys only know how to attack, you wouldn't know what to do if the other side ever started using your same tactics.

Some of the internet stores are great, I'm sure...but they don't toss me a beer and stand around and chat when I purchase things from them.

I'm sorry you feel you have to buy friendship and give people your business for them to have a beer with you.

I also couldn't get the gear I'm diving from an internet retailer. I dive primarily Aqualung/SeaQuest/Suunto...which cannot be sold online...EVER...PERIOD.

Except...that it is sold online...EVERY DAY...PERIOD.

 

[Cacia]

yea..I was going to say...I love Suunto and SP and I wish somebody would have warned me. EVER? PERIOD?

I'm sorry you feel you have to buy friendship and give people your business for them to have a beer with you.

now that was harsh. Kinda true though...A bit more satisfying to be able to be more selective...or drink a LOT of beer...never mind.

 

[in_cavediver]

Here is a slightly different take on the whole internet vs LDS thing. Let look not at today but at tommorow.

The general trend is for small specialty shops in general to lose out to the larger chain stores/online stores unless there are external mitigating factors. The wal-mart/home depot syndrome if you will. Resort area's/charters will likely not see the same devastating impact as many LDS will. They will merely shift and adapt to a different revenue stream and niche market. (if they haven't already). The general small scale LDS will (and is) suffering significantly. Like it or not, this is how the market forces are acting and what characteristics are being selected for.

Now, what is unique about the LDS to make it possible exempt from these forces - well a few things. Air Fills and training. Gear will clearly go the route of the online or big box chain. You likely will have to drive to a larger city to try before you buy much like premium clothing is today. Are training and air fills enough though to support an LDS in a small market? My opinion is no. The LDS I used to DM for lost money on both hoping to sell gear to make it up. Take away gear, they just lose money faster. So what about LP, Scubatoys etc? Well, they make up the wal-marts and home depots. They have the volume to sell the gear and they also do training. With luck, they will start a chain franchise's and be able to better serve larger local markets. (with volume comes clout, just ask any vendor dealing with wal-mart). They can then succeed in these more marginal markets, especially if they partner with local independent instructors.

So where does that leave the divers needing air? Simple. Some area's have the market to sustain a LDS or chain equivalent and they will get them. Think Divers Supply for instance, 5 locations. Many dive sites/dive charters will have air stations to support their own facilities as well. Where those fail to serve the needs, local dive clubs will form to fill the void.

And training? Training will still be available in the resort destinations and afflifiated with some charters. Other area's will see club based and independent instructors fill the void. Prices may increase but that would be only to better reflect the actual cost to do the training.

Again, this is just my opinion of what the future holds......

 

[markrovner]

Gosh, what if the LDS charged Internet prices? I'd even pay a 10-15% surcharge for the ability to return stuff through the LDS. It's quite hopeless to pursue a business model that charges vastly more for identical equipment that is available online for less. It's just not going to work.

FWIW, my experience with Scuba.com has been utterly flawless. I've returned stuff and they have been great about it. I can almost always get a certified instructor on the phone at Scuba.com to talk through a purchase. They are generous with their time, and work hard to keep me happy.

Contrast that with a recent experience at a DC area LDS where I brought in a broken reg for repair. I could barely get the lone clerk to look up from his magazine to help me. He made so little effort to understand or document my problem that the shop tech had to call me a few days later to get the details (major first stage failure of some sort).

Good prices and good service will win every time, regardless of geography.

 

[Whitey]

Really I think people these days are afraid of interacting with people. They would rather spend there time staring at a computer screen then going to a shop and trying gear and really learning about it. whens the last time an internet site set your clock on your dive computer? Well? all you "expert" divers may know how simple it really is but new divers don't. At these big sporting good stores you get little snot nosed kids still in high school who dont know the first thing about diving just thrown into the scuba section. so your little extra money that your spending in the LDS is going to pay people very little to do a job they love and to pass along information to you.

 

[J.R.]

Gosh, what if the LDS charged Internet prices? I'd even pay a 10-15% surcharge for the ability to return stuff through the LDS. It's quite hopeless to pursue a business model that charges vastly more for identical equipment that is available online for less. It's just not going to work.

Ya' know... the one thing that KEEPS puzzling me... and the above is a case in point... if the internet flag wavers are SO happy with everything... why the heck do you even CARE whether the LDS has a working model or not? Why would you ever go to one? What the heck does it matter to you?



Are you yanking the chains of those who DO support the LDS for the heck of it? Are you secretly crying out for acceptance? Are you trying to justify something? Are you somehow so insecure that when those of us DO talk about gettin' together at a dive shop you feel lessened by it?



Dudes... its YOUR dive... go dive it. But if you want to tell people who actually have started and are actively running dive shops how to do what you yourself DON'T DO... then I'd suggest opening up a consulting firm and seeing if you're really as wise and capable as you like to present yourself on the net.



The one thing I don't think I've seen yet is an LDS owner coming out and begging for our input and consultation services... they got shops... we don't. That sez' something...

 

[fire_diver]

whens the last time an internet site set your clock on your dive computer?

Whens the last time a lazy slob actually READ his owners manual to learn about the thing he/she just bought? I'd rather learn it myself than have someone do it for me. Guess you must be the "other" type.

 

[Splitlip]

Your situation is a very exclusive compared to any other cases. That is, the customer isn't trying to make a friend when they spent the money. When the market is small, it used to be possible though. As the market is getting bigger, we can't expect the same business practice.

You are lucky... The LDS in my town is monopolizing the market about 60 mile boundary. Everything is premium price and if you buy something from other LDS, you are punished by delaying the air fill (about week for one nitrox fill) and regulator service (two or three weeks). I really hope this guy is out of business for a potential local new diver.

I hope YOUR situation is NOT the norm. A week for a fill. That guy deserves to be punished.
I am fortunate that I have 3 shops within a 6 mile radius (just outside that radius is a Divers Direct). Also had 4 others which went away in the last few years.

 

[fire_diver]

Ya' know... the one thing that KEEPS puzzling me... and the above is a case in point... if the internet flag wavers are SO happy with everything... why the heck do you even CARE whether the LDS has a working model or not? Why would you ever go to one? What the heck does it matter to you?

It matters becuase divers like you keep screaming in our face that we are killing the dive industry

Are you yanking the chains of those who DO support the LDS for the heck of it? Are you secretly crying out for acceptance? Are you trying to justify something? Are you somehow so insecure that when those of us DO talk about gettin' together at a dive shop you feel lessened by it?

Can't speak for others, but I do support LDS. I just don't support bad ones. Even the good one I do support, I feel no alleigence towards. I also don't feel the need to "hang out" at a store in order to "be a diver."

Dudes... its YOUR dive... go dive it. But if you want to tell people who actually have started and are actively running dive shops how to do what you yourself DON'T DO... then I'd suggest opening up a consulting firm and seeing if you're really as wise and capable as you like to present yourself on the net.

It's the dive shop owners telling *US* how great they are. How *WE* are lost without *THEM*. Rubish

The one thing I don't think I've seen yet is an LDS owner coming out and begging for our input and consultation services... they got shops... we don't. That sez' something...

Sometimes it says they are great divers with a love of the sport and want to share. Other times it says they are greedy SOBs trying to nickle and dime thier customers for everything they have.

Comrade Stroke