Advanced Open Water Disappointment

[Arkman]

The philosophy of mastery instruction is that the instructor continues to instruct the student until the student demonstrates mastery of the skill at that benchmark level. Under that system, everyone should pass if given enough time and enough chances to meet the standards. There are cases where students still don't get there, but that is why people can expect to pass the class.

I do think it should be this way. And that is exactly what I experienced in my OW class. We had one student that did great with most things but really struggled with removing the mask. The instructor took them on a 1:1 dive when we were all done and helped them work through the anxiety. I as I understand it they started small, with just a little water in the mask and moved up to the complete removal. They told me they never had an issue in the pool, but the colder water in the lake freaked them out. I think the instructor did great and I would have loved to do my AOW with him. I know I would have gotten more out of it.

To be clear, an instructor is supposed to get students to pass by bringing the student up to the standard, not by dropping the standard down to the student.

I fear that this is much more common that we'd all like to think. Maybe not, I don't know. I really don't. That was my experience in for AOW waters though. There were 5 of us, 2 decided not to do the deep dive so they didn't "pass". But that was their choice, which I don't fault them or the instructor for. My buddy should not have passed, I don't think he met many of the requirments. But that means the instructor would have had to do more than 15 minute dives .

 

[Cthippo]

A lot of this is going to come down to the instructor compensation model. If you are getting paid a flat rate per student and one student is competent after 4 hours but another needs 8 hours, that is going to affect your decision making. Hopefully the easy ones balance out the hard ones, but it sounds like in the dive industry that is not always the case.

 

[wetb4igetinthewater]

A lot of this is going to come down to the instructor compensation model. If you are getting paid a flat rate per student and one student is competent after 4 hours but another needs 8 hours, that is going to affect your decision making. Hopefully the easy ones balance out the hard ones, but it sounds like in the dive industry that is not always the case.

When I taught for a shop, I had a number of students I wouldn't certify. Some never got out of the pool.

Every single one passed with flying colors with other instructors.

It isn't like agencies don't know this goes on.

 

[boulderjohn]

When I taught for a shop, I had a number of students I wouldn't certify. Some never got out of the pool.

Every single one passed with flying colors with other instructors.

It isn't like agencies don't know this goes on.

The obviously intended implication of your post is that the students performed the same for these other instructors as they did for you, so the other instructors must not have had good enough standards. An alternative explanation was that these other instructors provided the help those students needed to get over the top. Perhaps a little additional instruction was all they needed. Perhaps they used approaches that worked better with those students.

 

[SuitableSkies]

I think an important part of it is that depending on where you live, you might not have the option to find a better shop. I lived in two different places for my open water and my AOW, and in both places I had two shops that I could practically choose from. And in one case it was great and I think really highly of the instructors, and in the other, it was entirely up to me to learn what I could.

It's easy to say "do your research and choose good instructors" but that's not always feasible. In the end I feel like the best way to learn is to take the theory portion of the classes seriously and do your intstructional dives (and of course all the other dives too) purposefully and thoughfully regardless of how your instructor is

 

[wetb4igetinthewater]

The obviously intended implication of your post is that the students performed the same for these other instructors as they did for you, so the other instructors must not have had good enough standards. An alternative explanation was that these other instructors provided the help those students needed to get over the top. Perhaps a little additional instruction was all they needed. Perhaps they used approaches that worked better with those students.

You might be right..one of those instructors bent himself and a student in a tech 45 course. Also, when I was teaching an open water course fully neutrally buoyant and trimmed, I was sharing a pool with him where he was working with DMCs who spent the almost the entire time on their knees.

My students assumed that they were remedial open water students.when one asked about them, I informed them that they were becoming dive pros. The WTF look on their faces still gives me a chuckle.

One of the other students had major issues that I won't get into. But honestly he needed to move far from home and get therapy before attempting to be an autonomous diver. His certifying instructor was on the knees except when required.

And then there was the one who wouldn't stay with his buddy no matter how nicely I asked.

It was an easy $25 to check off the boxes per student. When the pay is that low, there is little incentive to ensure the student gets the instruction they need.

 

[tursiops]

They just placed students on their knees and ticked off check boxes.

Did you actually see them do this?

 

[pauldw]

And since they want to be JUST like their instructor, they kneel.

So that brings this thought: what if an instructor said to themselves, "OK, nearly everyone has students on their knees, and I'm not going to upset the LDS owner by doing things differently, but I can float neutrally buoyant in front of the students the whole time and maybe some will catch on"?

 

[wetb4igetinthewater]

So that brings this thought: what if an instructor said to themselves, "OK, nearly everyone has students on their knees, and I'm not going to upset the LDS owner by doing things differently, but I can float neutrally buoyant in front of the students the whole time and maybe some will catch on"?

I was told I was making other instructors look bad.

I didn't care. I wasn't going to do my students a disservice in order to avoid hurting someone's feelings.

 

[berndo]

When I taught for a shop, I had a number of students I wouldn't certify. Some never got out of the pool.

Every single one passed with flying colors with other instructors.

How is your experience level as an instructor? Early on I had more issue with some students than later with more experience.

I have my issues with the PADI/SSI and how they sell the pro levels. Having said that, the OWD class is fine, it does the job when done by an OK instructor. The issue isn't kneeling but overweighing the students in OW.

I think some of the complains here are WAY exaggerated.