Advanced Open Water Disappointment

[The Chairman]

In scuba, there is only a two point scale-pass or fail.

Yet, I've never seen trim, nor buoyancy quantified in any standard. How many inches/feet deviance are acceptable during a dive before you fail? Hell, I've never seen mask clearing quantified to my satisfaction. One breath? Two? Twenty? Are they allowed to kneel on the bottom, or must they remain neutral? How about quantifying the doff and don? My students don't get to touch the bottom nor the surface. I'm one of the few instructors who require that. In fact, if it's a deep pool, I don't allow more than a 4ft deviance during the skill. Yet, I've seen instructors pass students who look like they're imitating a troop of monkeys wrestling over a banana on the floor.

Again, this is why they have to teach trim and buoyancy as an add on. Even then, there is no quantifiable standards for what's acceptable and what's not even in that class. I've heard horror stories galore about what's happened in those classes. No, I don't think of myself as an exceptional instructor. I just use exceptional, and quantifiable standards. Monkey see, monkey do, so always set a good example.

It's important to note, as I have often done, that selecting your instructor is far, far more important than choosing a particular agency. Agency standards aren't worth a lot, until there's an accident and the finger pointing starts. Then the ambiguity almost always hurts the instructor.

 

[Outbound]

It's important to note, as I have often done, that selecting your instructor is far, far more important than choosing a particular agency. Agency standards aren't worth a lot, until there's an accident and the finger pointing starts. Then the ambiguity almost always hurts the instructor.

I agree 100%. The problem is that most times students don't get to choose their instructor, or even interview them beforehand. They walk into a shop, inquire about OWD certification classes, and sign up. The person they talk to might be the shop owner, manager, or just a sales person. That person may or may not be their instructor. It's why it's so important for shops and dive resorts to ensure high-level instruction from all of their pro staff. Some do that, and some, unfortunately, do not.

To circle back to what was said many pages further up in this long thread, it's also why it's important for students to call out bad shops and instructors in public forums such as this, in online reviews, and to the relevant training agency's quality control department.

 

[boulderjohn]

It's why it's so important for shops and dive resorts to ensure high-level instruction from all of their pro staff.

Once again this brings up the fact that the individual dive shop owner or manager is the weak link in the entire scuba system. I worked for two different shops. In one of them, the director of instruction made sure that everything was being done properly. In the other, the belief was it was up to the individual instructor to do whatever they needed to do to get student certified. The difference from one instructor to another was huge.

 

[The Chairman]

They walk into a shop, inquire about OWD certification classes, and sign up.

That sounds like a choice. Not doing a modicum of research often leads to making poor choices.

 

[BlueTrin]

That sounds like a choice. Not doing a modicum of research often leads to making poor choices.

To be honest I think they suffer from the same syndrome than any other customer facing business.

People rate their experience which is how they think they enjoyed the class.

To get highest ratings you just need to do a decent job but make sure you smile and give the students a great feeling/experience.

I went with the two largest highly rated shops for OW and AOW in London. They taught on the knees and for AOW the instructor left me with a DM when I was getting under 50bar.

At the time, I didn’t know about neutral trim or nothing so I obviously gave 5 stars for my OW.

I only realised later than for my AOW, the instructor was mostly in fault and I was just focused on getting paperwork so I could continue my AOW on holidays with another shop. So I didn’t report the second shop.

All of this to say, that OW and AOW students will have no clue about what to look for, for quality instruction.

They will be taught in knees, not know better but give 5* because the instructor is a cool guy with a smile.

 

[Arkman]

I agree 100%. The problem is that most times students don't get to choose their instructor, or even interview them beforehand. They walk into a shop, inquire about OWD certification classes, and sign up.

This is for sure the case for me. Not only did I not get to pick my instructor, I didn't really get to pick my shop. But I'll take the blame for this, I was in a hurry to get it done so I signed up for the only class that fit my schedule. If I had more time, I would have tried to find a different shop. That said, unless I am willing to travel hundreds of miles (or more) my options are pretty limited. As I look into next levels of training, I feel very limited. In addition to paying for good training, I'll have to travel. Which puts many of the classes out or reach for me right now. Honestly, maybe forever.

To circle back to what was said many pages further up in this long thread, it's also why it's important for students to call out bad shops and instructors in public forums such as this, in online reviews, and to the relevant training agency's quality control department.

I agree completely. As a new diver you don't know what you don't know. Unfortunately I don't know that SB is a great place to do it as I think most of the people on here are more seasoned divers and many new divers won't look here for info. Maybe I'm wrong, I really don't know. That is just what it seem like to me.

I think agencies could help with this by offereing a way to critique instructors and for others to even view their ratings or something. I also thing agencies could do a better job setting expectations. Maybe even sharing the list of requirements a student has to do in order to "pass".

In the other, the belief was it was up to the individual instructor to do whatever they needed to do to get student certified. The difference from one instructor to another was huge.

It seems to me that in many, maybe all, of the main agencies. Students expect that they will pass. Some instructors will do whatever it takes to to pass students. Some because they will continue to work with them so they should pass - Like my OW instructor years ago did. Others will look the other way or not follow standards - Like I feel my AOW instructor did.

 

[Arkman]

That sounds like a choice. Not doing a modicum of research often leads to making poor choices.

While it is a choice, its not always that easy. When you first sign up for a class you assume that a 5 star rated shop will give good instrucion, you just don't know any better. Why else would the agency give that shop a 5 star rating unless they are really good? I'd be willing to bet the amount of research a diver does on their next level of instruction goes up after each class. Because they know more and more and learn what questions to ask or what to watch out for.

All of this to say, that OW and AOW student will have no clue about what to look for, for quality instruction.

Yup. I agree.

 

[johndiver999]

It sounds like in some shops it is impossible to choose your instructor. They apparently use different instructors for pool, academics and then open water dives and that could be 3 or more different people/instructors.

Perhaps that is the most efficient use of resources, but I can imagine that it best-serves a student who is having some difficulties or insecurities to get so many different faces - it just seems sorta impersonal.

 

[The Chairman]

They will be taught in knees, not know better but give 5* because the instructor is a cool guy with a smile.

And since they want to be JUST like their instructor, they kneel. They also think it's OK to do rapid ascents, because they saw their instructor do them over and over. They'll stand on the reefs, think the buddha pose is neat and barely do a safety stop. All because that's how their instructor dove, and he's the coolest.

Not only did I not get to pick my instructor, I didn't really get to pick my shop.

Take heart. My first instructor never got in the water with us. Not in the pool. Not in OW. It wasn't an agency sponsored class, but that was my first introduction. The instructor who gave me my card, was surprised I already knew how to dive. Meh. I read the book. The idea of using an spg, a depth gauge, and BCD was awesome! They made diving easy. Near the end of the class he was telling us how the reef changes color at night. I pointed out that this was because he was using a light so the colors weren't absorbed and that they'd be the same colors during the day with a flashlight. He had never made that connection.

The most important tool in learning to dive is the student's attitude. Yeah, that's even more important than an instructor. A great student will not let their instructor hold them back.

 

[boulderjohn]

It seems to me that in many, maybe all, of the main agencies. Students expect that they will pass. Some instructors will do whatever it takes to to pass students. Some because they will continue to work with them so they should pass - Like my OW instructor years ago did. Others will look the other way or not follow standards - Like I feel my AOW instructor did.

The philosophy of mastery instruction is that the instructor continues to instruct the student until the student demonstrates mastery of the skill at that benchmark level. Under that system, everyone should pass if given enough time and enough chances to meet the standards. There are cases where students still don't get there, but that is why people can expect to pass the class.

In traditional instruction you would be taught for a little while and then tested. If you didn't meet the mark, you would have failed. The class would be over. Some agencies do that to at least some degree, but almost all use the mastery learning process today.

To be clear, an instructor is supposed to get students to pass by bringing the student up to the standard, not by dropping the standard down to the student.