Advanced Open Water Disappointment

[Edward3c]

Calling of objective standards like a 3-foot window depth change allowed and within 15 degrees of trim without sculling would go a LOOOOONG way. I believe NASE and RAID are the only WRSTC members who mandate this.

The inherent side effect of this "massive change" would be the loss of the majority of instructors.

Okay, someone send me a recipe for crow, as now I admit that I am calling for a "massive change" that will cost "billions of dollars" (in revenue).

I'm still think the sooner the industry reaches that point, the better and healthier the industry will be.

Whilst BSAC do not specify an angle of trim, we do expect students to be horizontal and maintain their buoyancy within a specified range (see image) - dependant on diver grade. The Workshop was introduced to provide BSAC members with a benchmark and to ensure instructors were compliant before it was incorporated into core training at the relevant diver grades.

I found long time divers were lass able to meet the gold standard than newly qualified. In fact many Ocean Divers achieve Black. Divers who learned with other agencies found the workshop very useful, with most passing > Bronze.

SD = Sports Diver
DL = Dive Leader

 

[berndo]

Are they allowed to kneel on the bottom, or must they remain neutral?

I know this is a SB truism but there is a reason why it's better to let (some) people kneel early. When the student has below average talent, it's too much task load early on and is aksing too much in the pool. That can cause them to get frustrated and do worse. Especially when they are in a group of 3 or 4 people and they see that other people are doing much better. Letting them do stuff like the mask off skill kneeling in the pool and OW 1 lets them learn in smaller steps. Once they feel they're doing ok with the skills you can let them hoover or be on their fin tips in OW 3 and 4 for the skills. The OW class is not for the instructors ego but for the student to learn basic skills in small steps. OWD cert is a licence to learn.
If you have a good students, you can let them hoover in the pool, but it would be much sense to make it a rule.

 

[steinbil]

The issue isn't kneeling but overweighing the students in OW.

Is it easy to kneel on the bottom if you're not overweighted? I guess a full tank will make any diver slightly negative, but it would seem difficult to be stable and anchored on the bottom in any position unless you're so negative that it overcomes the buoyancy of a full inhale.

 

[berndo]

Is it easy to kneel on the bottom if you're not overweighted?

No, but it doesn't matter. You can overweight them by a couple of kgs for the pool and take weight off as the class progresses. They'll inhale too deeply in the beginning so you'll have to overweight them some eitherway.

 

[The Chairman]

When the student has below average talent,

Never blame your student! Poor instructors blame their students. Competent instructors identify issues as they arise and help their students to progress. All of their students become "good" in the process.

If you teach them to kneel, it will be a skill they will never forget, and they'll use it anytime they get flustered. I had two students who were taking a Oceanography course at their high school where they had to dive. I got to go along on their reef assessment dive. Their instructor wanted them to kneel, but being properly weighted and having never knelt underwater before, they didn't do it. They really had no idea what the sign meant. Anyway, they did their assessment of the reef, a few inches above it and never touching it. The instructor approached me after to complain about their inability to kneel. I was flabbergasted. I asked her if they accomplished all the tasks she required of them? Yes. Then you should be happy that they didn't impact the reef while assessing it. Her response was that she couldn't do what they did. Yeah, I told her I'd be happy to teach her how in just few minutes, but she would rather kneel on the very thing she wants to conserve. Go figure.

Once you've taught a diver a bad habit, like kneeling or letting them use their hands to correct trim, it's a thousand times harder to break them of it. It's far, far easier for me to teach them the correct way to dive from the start. There are no bad students: only bad instructors.

 

[The Chairman]

They'll inhale too deeply in the beginning

That means they're stressed. Many (most?) instructors work from the bottom up. They start with kneeling and spend the rest of the class trying to get them off of the bottom. I prefer to work from the top down. Students do a number of laps on the surface in full kit learning to relax and kick. I teach the frog kick from the start. Once I see their breathing get into a more relaxed rythm, we take a moment and weight them for the pool. If they take too big of breaths they'll get floaty, so they learn to control their breathing and start to descend towards the bottom. Their goal is to be deep enough to be able to touch the bottom with one finger. Of course, we look at their basic trim during this period, and adjust accordingly. Once they achieve their goal and are close enough to the bottom to be able to touch it, we start with all the other skills needed for diving. BUT, and it's a big butt, all of these subsequent skills are added to the foundation of being in trim and neutral. Part of the parameter for all skills is that they be done neutrally with only a few inches of deviation. The students love being in control and their stress levels plummet. By the time they graduate from the pool, they have better buoyancy than most of the already certified divers they'll meet.

FWIW, when a student feels in control, they lose all fear. A fearless student learns at a much, much faster pace. So, while it take a bit of time to get them comfortable enough to be close to the bottom, the subsequent skills are acquired at an incredibly fast pace. Even better, they never ever feel a need to pop to the surface in panic. They become a joy to teach.

 

[berndo]

Never blame your student! Poor instructors blame their students.

What a disingenuous comment.
I'm not blaming the student. It's a matter of fact that some students have more talented than others that need more time to be ok with taking off the mask for instance. In NO way have I blamed any student in my last comment or any other comment.

If you teach them to kneel, it will be a skill they will never forget

Once you've taught a diver a bad habit, like kneeling or letting them use their hands to correct trim, it's a thousand times harder to break them of it.

Kneeling a few times in initial training is not even 'building a habit'.
This is such complete and utter nonsense. I have done skills kneeling in my PADI OWD too and never did it after the class until I started teaching.

Have you ever actually worked as dive instructor have you only done weekend class with a couple of people at a time?

 

[boulderjohn]

When the student has below average talent, it's too much task load early on and is aksing too much in the pool. That can cause them to get frustrated and do worse. Especially when they are in a group of 3 or 4 people and they see that other people are doing much better. Letting them do stuff like the mask off skill kneeling in the pool and OW 1 lets them learn in smaller steps.

This is a common concern. When I was first negotiating with PADI HQ about this, that is what I was told. Eventually they realized they were wrong, although not until after the article was published. Here's why.

First, it is not easy to kneel on scuba. As Stenbil said above, you have to be overweighted to kneel comfortably. Students are much more comfortable and at ease while lying prone and neutrally buoyant. (Horizontal trim is important.) It is also best for them if they are properly weighted.

Next, skills done in horizontal trim are much easier to do than when kneeling. Regulator recovery is almost ridiculously easy, particularly the reach method. When on the knees, the tank falls down and away from you, and it is so hard to reach the lost hose that students are taught to use their left hand to raise the tank and bring it closer. While horizontal, the hose is right behind the ear, so close the student might reach past it at first.

Next skills done kneeling are done differently than they would be while diving, so you are teaching incorrect skills. Leaning to the right for regulator recovery while kneeling is completely different from leaning to the right while in trim. With mask clearing, students are told to tilt the head back while clearing. Why? Because while in diving trim, they need to do that to get the bottom of the mask at the low point so the water will run out. If they are kneeling, the bottom of the mask is already there, so tilting the head back is unnecessary and even counterproductive. With the OOA exercise, students are in the position they would be in during a dive, so the OOA diver can approach the donor normally. In real diving, OOA does not occur with the divers upright and chest to chest.

In summary, in my considerable experience with this, learning initial skills while neutrally buoyant and horizontal is easier for students than learning on the knees. You task load students when you force them to learn the skills while trying to maintain balance in an unnatural vertical position.

 

[Capt Jim Wyatt]

Have you ever actually worked as dive instructor have you only done weekend class with a couple of people at a time?

What difference could that possibly make?

 

[boulderjohn]

What we see here is what I have seen repeatedly in the dozen years since we published our article on this. Here is the debate in summary.

Proponent: I used to teach students on the knees, but I changed and can describe the difference to show why neutrally buoyant is better.​

Opponent: I have only taught students while on the knees, but my imagination is so powerful that I can tell what it must be like to do it neutrally buoyant, so I know what it must be like and why it is worse.​