Advanced Open Water Disappointment

[BlueTrin]

For all the bad things we say, I always thought that the commercial classes are successful at having someone doing a scuba dive in a bit more than a weekend.

If you think of it this way, I find hard to not be amazed that you can take a population of people who often aren’t good at water activities and get them to dive safely in a few days …

And with a few days more of instruction, you can build up to 30m depth …

 

[wetb4igetinthewater]

I never argued for government regulation--don't put words in my mouth, I had a career as an education reformer. Teaching is highly government regulated, with millions of dollars spent in regulation to ensure we have the best teachers in our schools. Look how well that's working.

I never said you did call for it.

And sure, millions of dollars are spent in many fields, including regulation. Now imagine if no regulation for teachers existed. Do you really think the situation wouldn't be worse?

Your problem, as before, is your absolutist thinking. Look at your question: "Where has self regulation ever worked?" The problem is that your definition of "worked" is perfection. If there is a flaw to be found anywhere, it means the system doesn't work.

Where did I define my definition of "worked"? I love quoting you so I will say this to you:

don't put words in my mouth

Perfection is never possible. However a process with a feedback loop that analyzes events and makes some attempt to rectify a problem is what I am looking for. A feedback loop would make the situation better, but never perfect.

After a career as an education reformer, I became a scuba instructor, and once in those ranks, I became a scuba instruction reformer. I am proud to say I have had more than a little success reforming that industry. I am frustrated that more has not happened, but I am also gratified that as much positive change has occurred as I have seen, From my perspective in both fields, I believe scuba's self-regulation has done a much better job of "working" than public education's government regulation.

Yes, your article in 2011 for moving to neutral buoyancy was great. However, I picked up with where you left off with my 3-part series on one way to actually do so. It doesn't help to beat people over the head to get their students off their knees without telling them how. Unfortunately, while an SDI blog post is much better than my own blog, it doesn't have as much reach as a training journal, especially that of a much larger organization.

So I have spent a lot of time in the scuba community advocating change, and I have accomplished more than a little. I think it does a better job than your approach, which consists of screaming "You guys all suck!" continually.

Allow me to point to some of my contributions which is more than "you guys all suck".
Teaching Neutrally Buoyant and Trimmed - International Training - SDI | TDI | ERDI | PFI
Teaching Neutrally Buoyant and Trimmed: Pt2 - Mask, Snorkel & Fin Skills - International Training - SDI | TDI | ERDI | PFI
Teaching Neutrally Buoyant and Trimmed: How to weight properly, Part 3 - International Training - SDI | TDI | ERDI | PFI

And most of the instructors who reach out to me are PADI instructors. And I'm happy to address their IDC shortcomings.
Finally, everyone's dive planning materials suck. So I wrote the following. And not only do local instructors use it, but I've been contacted by a few instructors in Europe who have adapted it to their own environments.

Your perception su.... is wrong.

 

[boulderjohn]

I say do away with all the BS certifications and just let it run it's course like the rock climbing and whitewater industry. If you wanna be good and safe at it, search out the best mentors and practice. Of course the big money won't be there. We may have less plastic junk gadgets and other equipment. We may even have less divers damaging the environments we enjoy. These certifications are a false sense of security.

I have a pretty good-sized stack of certification cards, and I have no regrets about them. I took the classes because I wanted to learn something, and I paid for the instruction because when I learned from someone, I thought that person should be paid for that work. I think it is also helpful that the students I took to 300 feet on trimix instructional dives had some sense ahead of time that I knew what I was doing.

By the way, earlier on I said that many ScubaBoard people think scuba instruction should be offered for free, and I was told no one thinks that. Here is an example of one.

 

[boulderjohn]

Where did I define my definition of "worked"? I

It's pretty obvious what you mean by the way you use the term, but I'll bite. How effective does any system, governmental or self regulated, have to be for you to consider it working? How would you measure it? Let's see your definition.

 

[BlueTrin]

It's pretty obvious what you mean by the way you use the term, but I'll bite. How effective does any system, governmental or self regulated, have to be for you to consider it working? How would you measure it? Let's see your definition.

The answer is always “it depends of whether my pay is indexed on that metric”

 

[Forbin's Descent]

I have a pretty good-sized stack of certification cards, and I have no regrets about them. I took the classes because I wanted to learn something, and I paid for the instruction because when I learned from someone, I thought that person should be paid for that work. I think it is also helpful that the students I took to 300 feet on trimix instructional dives had some sense ahead of time that I knew what I was doing.

By the way, earlier on I said that many ScubaBoard people think scuba instruction should be offered for free, and I was told no one thinks that. Here is an example of one.

I never said instruction had to be free. I just said get rid of silly cards that are a false sense of security and find proper mentorship. There are plenty of paid classes for rock climbing and whitewater one can take should one be inclined. I have no problem paying my cave instructor.

 

[Eric Sedletzky]

How about throwing out the entire industry as we know it and starting over?
Since there is no government oversight, then who elected the current structure as the rule?
It seems to me anybody could form an agency, it’s wide open, at least it should be.
Who is the WRSTC and who elected them?
How did they become the end all of what scuba should or should not be? Why do they matter, they are not a government agency, as far as I can tell they are just a panel that took the reigns and declared themself in charge. Through years of just being there they have become the standard. Dive boats and operators go by their standard because there really is nothing else.
Let’s talk about PADI and others. You know, if they’re not doing their jobs keeping their boys in line then maybe the paying consumer needs to smart up a bit and demand more. In a free market society this is how it works. If a business has bad customer service or is not competitive, or a closer comparison to scuba instruction/certification- if a driving school sucks and students can’t pass the drivers exam, what do you think happens to those businesses? But, the catch is that the driving school doesn’t issue the drivers license, you have to go into DMV and take their test and be drive tested by a DMV employee, at least in this state.
The problem in scuba is it’s the same crooks doing the training (or NOT doing the training) that issue the plastic. Where is the oversight? When word fially gets out to the cert agency the crook already got your money and delivered no training. This is clearly fraud. How do you fix it, go to the cops? That’s who you would call if your credit card was compromised. Is there a consumer protection agency that will deal with this fraud? But, then your involving a government agency to investigate this fraud. So we’re right back to square one because that seems to be the last thing people want.
Many other businesses have consumer protections. How is it that scuba instruction/certification can be this bad when it involves an activity that can be potentially very dangerous?
The more I think about all of this the more I realize what a house of cards the whole thing is built on.
It went from a very small niche sport in need of a few guidelines, to this huge voracious three headed monster, but the rules never changed.

 

[tursiops]

How is it that scuba instruction/certification can be this bad

Because those who are wronged by the system refuse to speak up.

 

[wetb4igetinthewater]

I never said instruction had to be free. I just said get rid of silly cards that are a false sense of security and find proper mentorship. There are plenty of paid classes for rock climbing and whitewater one can take should one be inclined. I have no problem paying my cave instructor.

Sane people understood what you meant.

It's pretty obvious what you mean by the way you use the term, but I'll bite. How effective does any system, governmental or self regulated, have to be for you to consider it working? How would you measure it? Let's see your definition.

It is obvious some people have an interesting thought process when challenged.

I'm being incredibly serious here in that the process is complex. There are many factors to be considered, and I am certainly not able to include all of them. For starters, I would be addressing training deaths. Seattle Scuba is a now closed dive shop that had about 4 or 5 deaths. Allegedly one of the instructors was responsible for 2, possibly 3 of those deaths. He never was expelled from PADI. The CD owner left for Mexico in the end. I would like a process that would address the issues they were facing. Some metrics would include reduction in incidents, retention rates, and other things. This would merit a collaborative effort to have meaning.

But we all know that's not going to happen. All I can do personally is to continue to help those who reach out to me, and continue creating training material for shortcomings of the industry. Now I won't change the world, but I'll help a few people.

 

[tursiops]

Allegedly one of the instructors was responsible for 2, possibly 3 of those deaths. He never was expelled from PADI.

And, yet, some instructors ARE expelled by PADI. Perhaps an allegation is insufficient....
The latest issue of The Undersea Journal lists the following QC activities by PADI during 1Q2023: