Advanced Open Water Disappointment

[wetb4igetinthewater]

So to all who want to impose a massive and highly expensive system on scuba to solve its problems, how do you know the problem exists to the point that it is necessary? Well over a million certifications are completed every year world-wide. Of course there will be some problems, but do those problems exist to the point that we need to make such huge changes to the system?

You are going to hear crickets, because not a single person is suggesting to

impose a massive and highly expensive system on scuba to solve its problems ... make such huge changes....

Not a single one. If you want to debate with people, you may want to consider debating the statements they make, not your extrapolation to the point of absurdity of the statements they make.

 

[tarponchik]

Your first assertion makes no sense to me. I have advocated for "common sense", which is sometimes hard to come by. How old should your daughter be before you let her go "out" to the mall with a group of friends? 11, 12, 14, 16, 18 ? Hell I don't known, but it is somewhere in there. We are called upon all the time to apply good judgement to all kinds of serious and subjective situations in our daily lives. This is like arguing with a child; making the cut off at 60 feet is reasonable.

This is because you and some others assume that some depth limit must be set do draw the line between OWD and AOW, but I think that such assumption is false and no such limit should be set at all. Therefore, the analogy with minimum age (like junior drivers licenses) does not work. People mature and develop with age, so some minimal age for driving must be set - and it is not surprising it is different between the states. However, what this has to do with depth? It's not like limiting age but like limiting speed for junior drivers. Most states limit juniors with curfew (i e, no driving from 12 am to 5 am in MA etc, and there is a reason for this) but I do not know any state that limits their speed to, say, 55 mph.

 

[Forbin's Descent]

So to all who want to impose a massive and highly expensive system on scuba to solve its problems,

I'm doing the opposite. Do away with all of it because it is a false sense of security and there is too much poor instruction

 

[Forbin's Descent]

Of course there will be some problems, but do those problems exist to the point that we need to make such huge changes to the system?

Again, this would be a good question to pose to Linnea Mills' family but in my eyes with the continued reports of poor to nonexistent instruction culminating in her death it is more than enough to remove a marketing company from dominating the industry

 

[wetb4igetinthewater]

This is because you and some others assume that some depth limit must be set do draw the line between OWD and AOW, but I think that such assumption is false and no such limit should be set at all. Therefore, the analogy with minimum age (like junior drivers licenses) does not work. People mature and develop with age, so some minimal age for driving must be set - and it is not surprising it is different between the states. However, what this has to do with depth? It's not like limiting age but like limiting speed for junior drivers. Most states limit juniors with curfew (i e, no driving from 12 am to 5 am in MA etc, and there is a reason for this) but I do not know any state that limits their speed to, say, 55 mph.

How about this analogy as you bring up diving.

Driving public roads, freeways included, is akin to open water.

Driving on a race track wheel to wheel is akin to advanced training.

Driving in a Formula 1 race is akin to even further training (technical?).

The analogy isn't perfect, but there are stages to driving and what is allowed. Same applies to diving if you are going on a chater. Now F1 is super expensive, but Bernie Ecclestone is not letting Bill Gates race regardless of how fast he was driving across the 520 bridge while he lived in Laurelhurst while his house was being built in Medina.

Or how fast he was driving his Porsche back to Seattle when Microsoft was in New Mexico.

 

[Eric Sedletzky]

Great idea, until:

This is where it breaks down. It costs money to run an organization.
(but the cost wouldn't have to be much if done well and with volunteer examiners, etc)


I doubt you could completely stop cheating, but you could minimize it.

No, it would cost money otherwise nobody will value it and there would be no incentive for testers to jeep doing a good job. People working for the agency would all be getting paid.
If you hired a private instructor they would be getting payed too.
Everyone gets payed.

 

[Eric Sedletzky]

…So to all who want to impose a massive and highly expensive system on scuba to solve its problems, how do you know the problem exists to the point that it is necessary? Well over a million certifications are completed every year world-wide. Of course there will be some problems, but do those problems exist to the point that we need to make such huge changes to the system?

If you read scubaboard it is made very clear that there is a massive problem in scuba.
Just read this thread about how AOW is falling apart and the scuba world as we know it is having a nuclear meltdown!

You’re the one that mentioned we should have a productive next few pages on how to fix it.
I merely suggested my idea.
That’s all.

 

[tursiops]

If you read scubaboard it is made very clear that there is a massive problem in scuba.

That's not actually clear to me. There are some posters who say the same thing over and over, but you only get to count that once. I am more impressed by what I see on dive boats and at resorts around the world; not perfection, but pretty good, in general. There are the truly terrrible, of course, but they are in the definite minority.
You should note that only maybe 1.5% of people EVER leave a review, and that people are far more likely to leave a negative review than a positive review.

 

[dedede]

How is this a 47 page thread?

 

[johndiver999]

This is because you and some others assume that some depth limit must be set do draw the line between OWD and AOW, but I think that such assumption is false and no such limit should be set at all. Therefore, the analogy with minimum age (like junior drivers licenses) does not work. People mature and develop with age, so some minimal age for driving must be set - and it is not surprising it is different between the states. However, what this has to do with depth? It's not like limiting age but like limiting speed for junior drivers. Most states limit juniors with curfew (i e, no driving from 12 am to 5 am in MA etc, and there is a reason for this) but I do not know any state that limits their speed to, say, 55 mph.

The depth limit is a suggestion. It is a recommendation from people who have zero authority over a recreational diver. If they don't like it, they can dive as deep as they want.

I got ZERO problem with experts putting out a suggestion for people who have had well less than 12 hours of experience doing the activity in question.