Advanced Open Water Disappointment

[Arkman]

Edit: My post has nothing to do with the OP, which sounds like some real problems, but we left the OP long ago in this thread.

I'm still here. Just been busy. I've ready every single commment, I just haven't had a chance to discuss them.

For the Deep dive of AOW, and eh Deep specialty, planning is critical. Gas goes away faster, narcosis is possible

I think this was the biggest shock to me. Although I don't necessarily think there is huge difference in the planning aspect of it, there is a difference. In my AOW this wasn't discussed at all. There was almost no dive briefing to speak of. I've talked to a few people about their AOW and everyone dove to 80' or less. I think this is crazy that instructors don't give students a chance to expierence narcosis even a little. We did on our dive, but that was because he was planning to dive to 80' and found out the platform was at 96'. I'm still not sure how he didn't know that ahead of time. In my case, my buddy was certainly having an issue at 96'. If we would have went to 80' as planned he would have thought it was ok to go to 100' on with another similiarly experienced buddy. If that happened it would have surely ended very different than it did on the training dive. He admits that on more than one occation he watned to spit his reg and bolt.

Tell us again why you seem to be OK with this. Tell us again why you have not already contacted PADI. Tell us again why you are not naming names or at least locations, so others don't get cheated -- potentially dangerously-- the way you got cheated.

I agree with this statement. It sounds like he really got cheated. I'll admit, my course wasn't too expensive so the amount I got cheated was less. I still got some dives that sound better than his. I also see his side to a point. It's hard to speak out if it will cause backlash for him. In my case there is only one shop in that area. One shop for probably 100 miles or so. If they don't want to rent me tanks, my diving is done.

What I am getting at is that the limit of 60 ft for OW was set arbitrarily, and there is no rational explanation based on laws of physics, empirical observations or medical necessities for this particular depth. This leaves just one possibility mentioned above: revenue.

I don't know if it was arbitrary. I just read a few books about diving this summer. In one of them he discussed how narcosis is still not really understood. Certainly not by the diving community as a whole. He quoated a study which pointed out that some can experience narcosis at much shallower depths that previously thought. It also last longer than previously thought. I can't really speak to much about this, because I didn't read the study so I just have take what he said in the book as fact. But my takeaway is that depending on the person and the dive, narcosis could show up shallower. It seems like 60' is a relatively safe depth for this to not be an issue.

Aside from that, I have to imagine that the 60' comes from looking at emergency procedures. If you have to do a CESA at 60' you could probably do that without violating PADIs recommended accent rate. Assuming you're able to remain calm and took a decent breath. At 100' or 130' a CESA has to be much more difficult to do safely.

I don't know if these points are true. Just my thoughts. All that said, this explination really only matters if people are properly trained. I bet most people would panic if they had to do an CESA at 60' and certianly wouldn't take a minute to get to the surface.

OW says you have training to go to 60' AOW says you have been trained to go to 130'. It does not say you are capable of doing all dives to 130'.

But shouldn't it? I mean, if you sign up for an AOW shouldn't you be at least reasonably comfortable to go to your depth limits? I get that not every dive is the same and not every condition is the same. You can't cover all of that in the AOW but you should be reasonably able to do a similar dive to your deep dive and feel reasonably comfortable. My dive buddy in our deep dive certainly wasn't comfortable. He was just about in full blown panic the entire time. He still got his card. I think he should have failed, at least for the day. We were told to keep sunday open so if we had to do a makeup dive we could. There was no way that instructor was going to dive again on sunday.

My biggest issue with my AOW is the fact that no actual skills were taught. He was so disorganized that many of the students were able to get away with skipping required skills. The only one he was at all picky about was the knot tying. I think that was because he could have us on our knees on the platform. The isntructor felt like he had a little control.

I get that in any of these classes AOW or any specialty, you're not going to come out an expert. But you should learn something. I think many people have had similiar experiences to mine. That is why these threads are so common. It all comes down to the instructor and the shop. If you get a good one, you probably learn something. If you don't, you just pay money for a card. Look for a good instructor.

 

[boulderjohn]

OW says you have training to go to 60' AOW says you have been trained to go to 130'.

Actually. AOW says you have been trained to 100 feet. The Deep Dive specialty goes to 130.

I've talked to a few people about their AOW and everyone dove to 80' or less. I think this is crazy that instructors don't give students a chance to expierence narcosis even a little.

Narcosis used to be a focus of the AOW course, but it is no longer. Students used to have to perform a task (like math problems) on the surface and then do them at depth so that they could see how much longer it took. the problem was that it frequently did not take longer; in fact, students often did it faster at depth, likely because they had practiced an unfamiliar task on the surface. the simple fact is that many and perhaps most people do not have clear narcosis symptoms, even at 100 feet, so students were learning that narcosis is no big deal.

 

[boulderjohn]

I took AOW for my first dives after OW certification, and I am very glad I did. I was the only student in the class, and the instructor did a great job improving my skills on every dive. It is sad to see in this thread that some people have had such pathetic experiences in their AOW classes.

 

[Chavodel8en]

Some folks are complaining that 60' was "arbitrarily" set as a limit for OW?

I actually think there is a good reason for 60'. Most of my local shore dives are basically limited to 60' due to topography. Honestly, while I track my NDL, it never gets close to be an issue (I have a fairly liberal computer). Shallower than 60' one likely wont be dealing with narcosis, and oxygen toxicity either.

So, to me, it makes good sense to have the initial training to 60', and we dont really need to worry about new divers getting bent, or any other issues. We can mainly focus on basic dive skills.

Diver training agencies obviously dont want brand new divers going directly to 100 feet before they are really ready for it. So they set the limit at 60'. But I guess we need something to complain about.

still here. Just been busy. I've ready every single commment, I just haven't had a chance to discuss them.

No problem, I was just pointing out that the thread (like many threads here) has strayed from your particular issue, so if you wanted to ignore it, you could.

 

[tursiops]

Actually. AOW says you have been trained to 100 feet. The Deep Dive specialty goes to 130.

Narcosis used to be a focus of the AOW course, but it is no longer. Students used to have to perform a task (like math problems) on the surface and then do them at depth so that they could see how much longer it took. the problem was that it frequently did not take longer; in fact, students often did it faster at depth, likely because they had practiced an unfamiliar task on the surface. the simple fact is that many and perhaps most people do not have clear narcosis symptoms, even at 100 feet, so students were learning that narcosis is no big deal.

It used to be said that no one got narcosis above 60 ft, some experienced it at 100 ft, everybody had it (although many denied it) at 130 ft, and this was one of the reasons for the depth limits. However, as we have learned more about narcosis and how to test for it, it clearly can start at less than 60 ft, and by 100 ft pretty much everybody is narced to some extent (although many deny it). So the possible rationale for those depth limits does not seem to be valid any more, but they remain.

 

[boulderjohn]

A lot of people will not realize that the reason people do the AOW deep dive at relatively shallow depths is that in many places, you cannot get the depths you want. I live in the Denver, CO area, and there is really no place in Colorado for us to reach AOW depths, We can drive about 400 miles to Utah and get to 65 feet in what amounts to a big hot tub, or we can drive about 400 miles to get to 80 feet in a sink hole in New Mexico. Most CO divers get their AOWs on dive trips to tropical locales.

About a decade ago a new DM in Arkansas started a thread to ask about his dive shop's claim that PADI had excused their AOW divers from the deep dive requirement because they did not have a suitable site close by. AOW students were told how to answer the PADI post-class surveys so that wouldn't be flagged. I checked with PADI, and they said no one is excused from the deep dive. They wanted to know the name of the shop, but the new DM would not tell because he feared being fired.

That is just another example of what I have written in many threads. The weak link in the scuba industry is the local dive ship ownership. The agency sets the standards, but the local shop can make instructors violate them as a condition of employment.

 

[wetb4igetinthewater]

The weak link in the scuba industry is the local dive ship ownership. The agency sets the standards, but the local shop can make instructors violate them as a condition of employment.

And agencies often take no action with reports. It isn't just the dive centers that are a weak link. They are often arm in arm with the agencies.

 

[Forbin's Descent]

The weak link in the scuba industry is the local dive ship ownership. The agency sets the standards, but the local shop can make instructors violate them as a condition of employment.

The certifying body needs to make sure the standards are met in a proactive way. Not sit around and wait for folks such as you, OP, myself and others with bad experiences to register complaints. There is no point to it if there is no quality follow up. Without making sure the standards are followed all they are is an author of training materials and a marketing agency.

 

[Forbin's Descent]

A lot of people will not realize that the reason people do the AOW deep dive at relatively shallow depths is that in many places, you cannot get the depths you want.

With this logic I can have a driver's license if I don't access to a car to train in and take the driving test in.

 

[Forbin's Descent]

One shop for probably 100 miles or so. If they don't want to rent me tanks, my diving is done.

This was a big part of it as well. More or less the only show in town. Luckily I've developed relationships throughout the region but as newb I had little recourse. For my part if somebody asks me about learning to dive I send them to a shop that's an hour away which is where the open water dive site closest to us is anyway. You have to make the drive so may as well do that shop. At the time I didn't know that though.